Dating an Army Soldier Stories (Part Two)
If daters are divorcing, and courters are divorcing, then perhaps the problem lies elsewhere. No touch at all. But, coming from such a controlling environment, you may find yourself attracted to a controlling father figure that is not healthy for you. The summer after junior year, while I was in Latin America, I decided to search Facebook for someone to chat with. We went to my hotel and made love. I met a guy my senior year of high school and he quickly became close friends with my group of friends. From the first time I met with him until our engagement, he became the greatest asset for me in our dating relationship.
An unusual perspective on religion, politics and life.
I started flying planes with a friend of mine and painting not well. His mom hugged me and still I think she is one of the sweetest women I have ever met, John told her I insisted on meeting his family before we went out and she told him she liked me already. Cristopher December 9, at 7: He was a rock, literally. Also part of the package were two sets of figures, and while we have never seen this product it appears the sets included were their Infantry Combat Group and first type German Infantry.
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Hector October 21, at Nam-Lex October 23, at 9: Captain Bill Ravenbeard October 28, at 4: Ezra October 30, at 9: Lightning Kangaroo November 1, at 6: Temporary Essential Scissors November 3, at 3: Rick November 6, at Walker Fargloom November 8, at 4: Elisha November 10, at 3: Brutal Francois Ravenbeard November 12, at Circus Duck November 15, at 4: Shannon November 17, at 4: Temporary Dagger November 19, at Timmy November 21, at 6: El Skeleton November 24, at 2: Zimfax November 26, at 6: Percy November 28, at 9: Dancing Tumbler November 30, at Arnoldo December 3, at 3: Wooden Rat December 5, at The Angel December 7, at 9: Cristopher December 9, at 7: Flash Navy Skunk December 12, at Dirk December 14, at 5: Black Turtle December 16, at 1: El Skeleton December 18, at 9: Nicky December 21, at 7: Vital Bella December 23, at Harold December 25, at 5: Rare Liquid Iron December 27, at 3: Green Crazy Darling December 30, at Edmond January 1, at 6: Spanlam January 3, at 4: Normand January 5, at 3: Sunny Bunny January 8, at 7: Spanlam January 10, at 8: Werner January 12, at 4: Forgotten Swallow January 14, at Noah January 17, at Danger Wizard January 19, at 1: Stony Llama January 21, at 7: Ronny January 23, at 9: Los Hatchling January 26, at 3: Elijah January 28, at 6: Deserted Warehouse January 30, at 4: Tiny Navy Honey February 1, at Nathanial February 4, at 3: Dormouse Willy February 6, at 3: Tad February 8, at Laser Hot February 10, at 8: Finger Swift February 13, at Marcus February 15, at 4: Beau Hot Trustee February 17, at 4: Irvin February 19, at Solid Silly Spider February 22, at 7: Silly Disappointed Sapphire February 24, at 4: Deangelo February 26, at 9: Vicious Moon February 28, at God is, and you answer ultimately to Him.
We could, for example, consider the age of the sons of Judah when he married them off in Genesis We know that Judah and his brothers sold off Joseph when Joseph was at least 17 years old. We know that Joseph was 30 years old Genesis It is generally believed that this was not more than a year before the beginning of the 7 Good Years, which were directly before the 7 Bad Years. So a total of some 22 years or so have passed. Among the 70 souls that came down to Egypt were Herzon and Hamul who were the sons of Pharez.
So, in the 22 years of time that Scripture gives us, we learn from Genesis 38, that after the sale of Joseph, Judah left home, courted, and got married. He got his wife pregnant at least 3 different times, and he then married off his first son Er to Tamar, and Er died, so he gave his 2nd son Onan to Tamar to father sons in the name of Er — and Onan died. When the 3rd son was not sent to Tamar to raise up seed, she disguised herself and got herself pregnant by Judah which produced Pharez the father of Hezron and Hamul who were among the 70 souls that went down to Egypt when Joseph was Obviously the Biblical culture accepted this account as literally true by stating that Judah gave Tamar to Er as a wife when Er was just 8 years old — you will still find this taught by Orthodox Judaism.
However, it seems that everyone in the Christian community rejects the literal reading of the account and no one accepts that sons should be married off at age 8. Yes the culture was different. But Boaz sent her away before anyone could see what happened. Naomi had Ruth do something WAY out of the norm for the courtship culture of our current culture.
That said, there are some parents that encourage courtship that are way over the top controlling. But I think many just want what is best for their kids. There are probably many ways to go about this topic that could be considered Biblical. But until today I have not heard this perspective on dating and I am interested in knowing more about it.
I feel like I want to interview some of the Great generation. Great point JC…as parents we are called to guide and counsel our children…after all, we have decades of experience to draw from in helping them make wise choices. Thanks Jonah for a well-articulated response. This is the exact point the article makes.
How does courtship only help daughters? The author is addressing legal adults still single in their late 20s because of these teachings. Helping to make wise choices is one thing. Making those choices for them is another. The courtship movement crossed that line way too much.
People became adults at The men would get married around age 25 after having at least a decade to build up enough to support a family. The milestone at thirty was when a father would turn over the business to his son. There is nothing biblical that indicates woman are subject to these property negotiations. As a homeschool mom I am so embarrased by the association with archaic religious leaders binding heavy burdens.
Unfortunately the Bible does have awful statements that indicate that that was the case, however I am personally going to believe that this was a cultural issue and should not be the standard held today.
He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives. This payment was given because the father would no longer be able to seek out marital arrangements that would be beneficial to the family, because a biblical woman without purity was without worth.
Before we get to mired in the idea that a man could rape a woman and then she would be forced to marry him, you need to realize there is a specific context here and it is most certainly not rape. The NIV has a number of translational errors and this particular error is especially disturbing to any Christian who happens upon it. We must be very cautious when reading the Word as our own minds can lead us astray. Kimberly, In the example you gave, the requirement to marry was on the man: I am not saying this as evidence for or against courtship or dating, as I, personally, am undecided.
And we must never rely on any formula to save us from heartbreak. Only the blood of Jesus can save us from the hell of breakup, or divorce, or…hell! Cry out to Jesus for wisdom and be amazed at how He answers. Thank you for writing this brilliant article and being so deeply honest.
I have passed it onto my children, one who was deeply hurt in a controlled courtship. My philosophy of parenting is to move from high control when toddlers could dash into the street to relinquishing control as my children enter adulthood.
This gels well with that idea. We have loved, prepared, coached, and encouraged our nearly-adult kids. Do we offer guidance? But we also trust the Holy Spirit within them. God is absolutely big enough to shoulder their mistakes and sins as He is big enough to shoulder ours.
I have 2 daughters… one I parented in fear which caused me to take the role of dictator. As you can imagine this lead to a breakdown of communication and promoted anger and rebellion. The consequences of my fear and lack of trust in God has been heart wrenching to say the least.
I have taken a different approach with my youngest daughter, which is truly a life giving experience. God is good; quick to forgive abounding in mercy — by His grace and love He is restoring the relationship between me and my oldest daughter.
Thank you for your words of wisdom. With autonomy comes responsibility and consequences. Its important to grant autonomy as they are able to accept the responsibility of it, but also let kids deal with the consequences of their autonomy. Kudos on pulling this off with such a gentle and non-judgmental tone. When we speak the truth without love it mostly goes unheard, and I think you avoided that as much as is humanly possible.
There are a lot of fish in the sea and some dads are nicer than others…. If she seems open to going out and dad is willing to talk, I see no harm in talking to him. Who knows, you might even pick up a Godly adult mentor in the process—something young guys badly need.
And then what about her? Just gonna ignore her plight? Could you be a catalyst in that family for positive change? So avoiding women with those kinds of fathers can save you a lot of heartache down the road. Maybe some have done it and experienced heartache the likes of which I do not know.
But those are the exceptions, not the rule. Thank you for addressing this point. I happen to feel that it is just plain respectful to ask a father if you may take his daughter out for a date.
I know that may be old fashioned, but sadly, many forms of respect, etiquette and manners are considered old fashioned now. Dispite what some may think there is still room in this world for godly, respectful chivalrous young men.
If a girl wants to go on a first date with a guy, it is HER responsibility to ask her father if she can go. It would be appropriate for the father to ask her basic question such as who she is going out with, if he is a Christian, how they met, and where they are going. Then he should give permission unless there is a huge red flag. That promotes trust all around. That just throws up unnecessary barriers. If you want to know why the guy is, meet him at the door when he picks your daughter up, say hello be friendly and ask him where they are going and what time they will be back.
Our daughter is When she goes out with friends, we ask her the usual questions— who, where, when, why. Up to this point, we have met and known all of her friends, male or female. I appreciate the conversation this article brings up, and the thought-provoking discussion. We are not ogres. I also enjoyed this perspective, but think that it would work best in an ideal world, and maybe not so much in reality.
Without knowing them in the slightest, how could you determine if they are trustworthy enough to be alone with your child? When I was a young girl, I had very poor judgment, and could have used a bit more input from a discerning parent. Learning to deal with difficult people? Meeting difficult situations and learning how to handle them? When I was in middle school, I had a boy who came to my home and met my dad, and had his approval to take me out I believe it was to the park.
Needless to say, I never wanted to see him again! I trust that there will be enough opportunity amongst reasonable Christian people who are willing to casually meet us, to give my children the interaction they need. God can direct the parent in how to handle these things with each of their children individually.
I do think blanket statements like refusing to bother with girls whose parents want to meet you is pretty radical. Also, group settings can help to encourage quiet type personalities to engage if handled properly, and given some guidance when the child is ready. I am definitely an introvert, and I met my husband in a group setting. He did approach me I was new to this small group , and invited me to a Christmas party.
I took my sister along, and the rest is history. I still believe that He will ultimately orchestrate opportunities as we seek His will with a heart ready to obey. I do think that allowing fathers extreme authority can be a slippery slope. I know my husband would love to protect our daughter especially, as would I, but we also want to know what she thinks and feels, and especially how she believes God is directing her.
We want to encourage her to search the Scriptures and seek the Lord for his guidance as she embarks on this exciting time of life. It is another thing when the daughter is 26 and shows herself to be intelligent, wise, and capable of making responsible decisions in every other area of her life. I completely agree with Margarett and with Jonathon on the points that they made. After all, the role of protector is passed from Dad to the husband. How is the dad supposed to pass that role on if he never even gets to talk to the guy?
I also agree that chivalry is becoming hard to find in this world, but I have guy friends that are legitimately trying to bring it back. Just to put a little hope into a bit of a bleak situation…It is not quite dead.
I agree with Lily. The article is geared towards single adults- not your 16 year old. For me to ask my mother or father for permission for anything would be ludicrous. Courtship only seems to work well when godly, meek, assertive parents are involved. It took so long to figure out Christian culture as an adult. However, the Spirit guided me through many misunderstandings and built me into the woman I am today- one who has discernment, one who guards her heart and body, one who is respectable.
There are wise women and men in the church that I go to for advice about relationships. They are all married, they are in different life stages, they all love the Lord and rely on Him. Those are the people I want to sign off on a potential husband. I did not date this boy. I felt it was awfully rude of him to ask my dad if he could date me before even inquiring if I was interested in dating him. I find it is more respectful to verify the girl is interested first. Had he shown interest, then asked me if he could ask my dad if he could ask me out..
I grew-up in a single-parent home where my Mother worked tirelessly to invest good things into myself and my three siblings. But because of that hole in my heart created by the abandonment of my Dad, I had a girlfriend continuously from the age of These were mostly unhealthy and utilized as a crutch for me to feel better about me!
Having the privilege to then Counsel Teens from Families of Divorce years later, I discovered many things: Thomas bases this article on the instruction of his grandmother, who was dating in the 30s and 40s.
No tradition of dating prior to the 50s? Give us a break. Prior to that time marriages for the rich were matters of political and economic unification, and both parties would take lovers if they felt the urge, and the poor simply married or not someone close to the family, and even among the Puritans women sometimes came to the alter with a bun in the oven.
You might like to believe that you represent a return to a more pious time, but that time never existed. Frivorce frivolous divorce is indeed growing, because the worthless baby boomer generation created the institution of no-fault divorce. Making divorce easier increased its frequency? If daters are divorcing, and courters are divorcing, then perhaps the problem lies elsewhere. You confuse anecdotal evidence with facts.
Our daughter just turned 15, so this is in our very near future. We are a homeschool family as well, and I found your article very intriguing. However, I believe that it is a sign of respect for a guy to ask the father. If the girl is under 18 it is an absolute must. I also agree that going out to dinner with someone does not equal a marriage proposal. If my husband of 40 years would have had to ask my father before asking me for a date, we would never have dated.
First of all most 15 or 16 year olds are too unsure of themselves to ask a girl out on a date, much less have to find her father first.
I think that you raise an interesting point— what is appropriate for daughters under the age of 18 vs over Being in my mid-twenties it can be impractical for my parents to be involved in my dating. A few years ago, I was living across the country from my parents and I started dating a young man.
The pressure of a boy having to go ask the father all on his own can be a lot. While it can be polite, requiring this as the only means of getting permission is steep and may not work the boy may be timid for example. Plus, the girl can feel completely uninvolved , like being are talking about her but not including her.
Is it not mutual? It serves to keep our daughters and sons dateless. It took hours to get my courage up enough to even talk to the girl, much less her father.
My daughter will ask me if she can go on dates. We will talk about him. Some day some young man will ask me for her hand in marriage. Until then, traditional dating as described in this article seems to be the most appropriate way to ensure the success of that future union. I am nearly 15, and I completely agree with you! Now, while I am upon the subject of a dance, I do want to mention something. He said no, because doing so would almost force her to go with me, which would be most discourteous.
What do you think as a parent? I agree with Jonathan. There are many wise fathers out there. Lumping them all in the courtship-is-flawed category is not very open minded, as you claim to be in this article. There is a middle ground that can be taken between courtship and dating, and I think it all starts with removing these dad-gum labels!
Teach your daughters what to look for in a mate long before they are marrying age. Each of your children will be different, so your rules for one daughter may be different than your rules for the next. Teach them about purity, and WHY purity is so important. Get to know families and invite them into your home. Kids actually CAN get to know each other in groups, and will generally zone in on their favorite in the bunch.
I do think parents no longer have that level of authority over their children once their adults out working on their own and so on. On the other hand, parents forcing their 30 year old to submit to their methods of romantic pursuit could justify a strong response of independence. I think some great thoughts here Nicki.
I also think courtship causes young men to see women primarily as sexual objects. In the body of Christ the idea is to see one another as brothers and sisters, and out of love and respect honour one another. I let my 15 year old son date at 15 because he shared where his heart was at. They are both engaged now to different people but both would say their dating relationship was very important in their development into Christian adults.
To me it comes down to open communications between kids and parents, grace, patience and allowing kids to make mistakes, the way we did growing up. If we are raising our children in the fear and admonition of the Lord to see themselves as He sees them and to know who they are in Christ Jesus they will seek His wisdom when deciding who is appropriate to date.
I feel there are non-negotiables for dating and friendship: In Deuteronmy we are instructed to teach our children when waking, before bed, when we are sitting and when we are walking along the road.
The author is urging boys to avoid those girls? Yes people out there in the world are having sex after their first date. Anyway why is it all on the boy? If I went out with a boy who wanted to kiss on the first date I would say NO. I see a double-standard here. If you have no faith in her why are you letting HER date? I, too, know of a specific friend that did courtship.
They are going strong still in a happy, healthy marriage. My husband and I both met young, in highschool, we did not do courtship but knowing the issues we both dealt with I wish that someone had taught us this because we would have possibly made far different choices than we did PRIOR to meeting each other. We corresponded via phone and mail before Skype and email. So we made it, we are 19 years married with more years added if that would include the years that we were together before marriage.
We have one daughter and we feel that it is important for her to see how special it is to save herself for that ONE person that God has already picked for her. We know that God is the perfect matchmaker. My husband and I PRAY for her future husband, that he too is finding it important to save himself for his future bride, our daughter.
We hope that she can be spared some of the heartache that my husband and I had with the other relationships we shared besides ourselves, prior to us being exclusive. Well I personally plan on being pro-active. This is my concern for my daughter and she has been given to us to guide, nurture and protect. I will teach her to abstain and wait and make sure that she understands this. I think balance is crucial!! What hinders are the boxes and labels.
It may not be the s, but I would still recommend traditional dating. I did not believe in fidelity until one is engaged — no matter how much I liked the guy. Of course, I never persued a sexual relationship. Boys understood and I pretty much had that reputation. I still got a lot of dates and the vast majority of them were gentlemen. Because I was dating different guys, they could not take me for granted and, if they liked me, they had to decide the level of commitment before another guy did.
I got 5 marriage proposals before I graduated college. I occaisionally see the guys I dated at social events and they have become fine husbands and fathers. We give each other a big hug and share warm memories. I find this statement kind of appalling. Why does it only matter if the BOY has strong character? Of course you should counsel your daughter on the type of character she should look for in a boy, but teaching HER good character — and trusting her character — is equally as important.
This might not be the s but most Christian teenagers are NOT out there sleeping with their girlfriends or boyfriends, and NONE of my friends kissed on the first date when I was a teenager which was the early s. They might be perfectly moderate parents who just think courtship is the best process until they read something like this. I agree though that the labels are confusing and misleading. This can be done well or badly. My family and I were on our journey out of various legalistic mind sets and practices when my later-to-be-husband showed up.
But it can take time. My parents were still gaining their footing, as was I, so there were elements of how we approached things that were still very tied to our old courtship ways.
Nick had enough wits and grace and wisdom about him to be able to chart his own waters amidst our mucky need for further growth—a manliness and maturity that is hard to come by in any situation. Probably not married to him! And we certainly made things hard for him in a number of instances unintentionally, but still our fault.
He loved the Truth, spoke the Truth, lived the Truth and interacted graciously with me and my family—with ultimate loyalty only to Christ verses an ideal or person. This was soo refreshing to me and us , and was one of many things that demonstrated to me that Nick was a humble leader by example, and was a patient individual who operated on a level far below the surface.
This was very good for our relationship. To give one example, Nick did go ahead and meet with my dad early on. In no way was Nick going to let my dad run the relationship. But he heard my dad out, they dialogued, came to an understanding of expectations, shook hands and all was cool. Nick was his own man and Dad, as it turns out, respected that. Rather, he preferred that! But he found out by meeting with my dad.
He also discovered areas needing improvement on our end! Meeting my dad was just one of a thousand stepping stones in the process of getting to know me…. For those more fearful or domineering parents, such meetings end differently, I know.
The example in your article is clearly about those still deeply entrenched in strict courtship beliefs, and unhealthy parental relationships. And so yes, those folks may not be ready to handle a sensible young man respectfully yet. They may need other friendships and discipleships first. One would not want to enter a super-difficult situation unless they were ready for it and the couple knew they were willing to deal with the in-laws long term.
It can be done. But it comes with a price and a couple has to be ready for that. Most though, should avoid those situations. Maybe even the family. But applying the old-school method of get-to-know-you dating to a girl who is still a bit uptight might be just the thing needed to help her unwind and reveal who she really is. Lol Now hopefully that will change. Thanks for encouraging a simpler, more sensible view on relationships.
Coming from an unchurched background, and now as a saved Christian parent, the idea of courtship seemed like an ideal to me. I started reading online, and came across story after story of the legalism that coincides with courtship. I like this idea of keeping dating casual by not going steady too soon with the same person, however, I think the authoritative presence of a Father is a must.
I hope my daughters will introduce any potential suitors to my husband from the get-go. And second, I want him to know that our family is invested in each other, that we care whom our children are spending their time with, and that we know what the guy looks like and can describe him to police should anything awful happen.
It sounds like the level of control involved with parents in the courtship process comes from a place of fear. No doubt, trusting young adults to make wise, life-altering decisions is scary. But that is where God carries the load.
I was in college when I got asked on my first date, a school dance. When I brought it up, though, the guy was very skittish … not because he was afraid of my dad ….
He just wanted to go dance with me, and I was acting as though he was asking for my hand in marriage. Because he is a trooper, he did call and talk to my dad, but my dad was just as perplexed. The whole thing was just silly, in retrospect. Or just have him pick you up at your house when your dad will be home and introduce them.
Women need a man to give them permission to date? And if a woman wants to give that permission? Or a woman wants to give that permission to herself?
If I were to ask a young lady out on a date, I would expect that if she has has permission from her parents to date that she is old enough to talk with her own parents or to choose for herself. Not because of her parents, but because of her. I want a partner, an equal. Call me old fashion, but I sorta like having an equal, not a puppy or small child.
That mentality is what keeps women feeling incomplete and incapable. God is clearly states that we are to submit love, honor, respect and cherish to each other. However, as for the specifics — women are to be subject to their own husbands, the example Paul uses is Sarah who revered Abraham even calling him lord lower case l. We were never created to be equal except in the life liberty and pursuit of happiness kind of way; God created man to be a protector and created woman with the need of security and protection.
I really do wish folks who knee-jerk answer with Bible verses about female submission would actually study them deeply, within the context they were written. God does not mean that females need a male authority to be in His will. This model really only works for predominantly white, middle class American folks. And if the goal is to equip our kids to walk closely with Jesus, hear and respond to the Holy Spirit, and trust the Father with their lives, we need to lead them into the ability to make their own decisions.
I say all this as a homeschooling mom who initially thought courtship sounded great, for all the reasons listed here. Growing up in a non-Christian home, I made all the wrong choices and had many regrets.
When I became a Christian when my oldest was a baby, I was determined to steer her in a better direction. Dad never said no, even when I wished he had, because he trusted her to figure it out if the guy was not a keeper.
The guys always knew Dad was looking out for her. Combined with her total ability to look for herself kept her from harm. It meant that young men needed permission to be involved with a very special young lady whom God had entrusted to our care. I suppose I did need their permission to leave the house, but they could not control my relationships. My husband never asked my father for my hand in marriage. If anyone had a claim on my life, it would be my mother since I came from her womb, but even still…I own me.
I am not submissive to my husband. We are complete equals. He nags me to get a job and learn how to physically protect him because he sees me as an equal partner. Which just makes me love him SO much more! He is religious, while I am vehemently not, but he expects equal work on my part as his spouse.
The reason I am an ex-christian is because the bible spoke against what logic and compassion told me was right and moral initially in any passages that spoke about women. Even as a christian I never for a second believed that a benevolent god would curse me to second rate status to a man because of my genitalia.
While I am still a spiritual person in my own ways , I feel free from the restraint of organized religion. I feel comfortable in my sexuality. I am so much happier than I ever was even at the happiest moments of my life as a christian. My husband and I actually did not date. We went from being best friends to engaged, which, for us, worked perfectly. The Bible is all about submission!
Your comment seems to miss this point. Christ submitted Himself to the will of the Father, demonstrating a choice to obey. If you have a daughter who is choosing submission to her parents -obedience- and wanting you to meet her father, that is a really good characteristic, for both of you!
It speaks volumes for any future relationship, marriage or otherwise. I really enjoyed this post, but would tweak it in the following ways- 1. Courtship, as well as many other ideas and practices common among conservative homeschooling culture, deprives women of agency in their own lives.
If the lady in question is over 18 and hopefully a bit before, depending on her maturity level she does not need permission from anyone to date. We have set the standard that if a guy asks her out, he needs to ask me. His first time out with her will include us. Part of that is because I see it as my place as her protector for now.
It is just about respect, not inequality. My bride of 19 years deeply appreciates the way I try to take care of her, and we just want the same for our daughter.
This article kind of advocates that, actually. Their parents are legally responsible for them. I was asked on my first date when I was 17, and when I told mum about it, she told me I had to ask dad. In the same way, when a boy asked me on a date, I had to run it past dad first. I told dad, and he was a little uncomfortable with the fact he had never met the boy before he had met plenty of my other male friends and probably expected one of them would be the first to ask me out , but he said as long as he got to meet him first it was fine.
So when the boy now my husband came to pick me up, he came inside, met my parents in fact met my entire family because my siblings were about to head out at the same time I was , and then we went off on our date.
To be honest, from that point onwards my father was hardly involved in my relationship. Sometimes I wish he had been a little more. My boyfriend spent a lot of time around my family though so maybe that was sufficient for my dad to form an opinion on things. If you want to respect your daughter, teach her how to respect herself, then let her do it. I now have six kids, and the oldest is Thankfully, he has a very smart mind of his own and was pretty frank with me about his thoughts of courtship.
He has changed my mind about courtship, and I loved this article. I agree totally with what you are saying here as well—that a young lady given the freedom to date should be mature enough already to make the decisions that are God honoring and self honoring. I, myself, am a very independent woman with opinions and thoughts of my own. My husband loves this and treasures this about me. I want my daughters to know that they are free in Christ and under the headship of a man who loves them as Christ loves the church to be strong and independent—starting with their own choice of dates!!
Kudos to you for this piece!! In the Bible, there are many verses that tell us that the husband is to be the leader of the family e.
For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.
Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word. No matter where you are on any chain of command, you still have those in authority over you. You are called to submit to Christ, to the church, and to the state. Those who does not allow themselves to be under authority are called rebels.
Also, you speak as though receiving guidance is a bad thing. This is not the case. I do believe, however, that God created men and women differently and has called us to different roles. Volumes can be, and have been, written on the subject, but I end here for the sake of relative brevity.
As a mom of 3 beautiful, smart, talented daughters, you have given me hope that people like you do exist. Interesting… I know an elderly woman who is unstable because she was never taught to be self-resilient, only to use her beauty to be an adored Southern belle. Thank you for pointing this out.
Another point is that fathers who believe in courtship hold that their authority over their daughter ends on the day she gets married. I escaped courtship in the midst of pursuing my first relationship… and that relationship turned out to be my husband I got my idea of what I wanted in a man just by being friends with a lot of guys.
She might be that special. Just 2 cents, if my mother-in-law had maintained a say over my husband, we would have never married. Some parental involvement can be good, and some can be destructive… Thankfully, my husband did not consult his controlling, judgmental mother who remains a strong critic of me… Just remember, a lot of in-law problems can be real issues….
Why start early with in-law complications? Most of them are probably very nice people who make perfectly acceptable in-laws. I know where he was coming from though. Some fathers can be overly controlling and eager to push away any and all suitors just for the sake of it.
Personally, when I have interest in a girl, meeting her father terrifies me. His words meant well, even if they were a bit vague in not explaining the context of his words.
Thanks for noting this too! Nobody ever seems to consider that maybe the young lady herself has put that out as a guideline to keep her heart safe. And I would still consider it basic, common courtesy for a young man to have to become acquainted with my dad before I would go out with him. A young woman is not property, as WAS the case in Biblical times, where these ideas come from.
A young woman needs to develop the decision-making ability and the confidence in herself to navigate these waters, hopefully with the love, support and advice of her parents. But without their control. Pearl — I think the author would absolutely agree that a suitor would speak with your dad about his intentions if he wanted to go steady with you.
You are not a car. You are a human. You decide who you want to eat with…not your dad. To this day, my parents have chosen not to have a relationship with us, but I praise God and am so very grateful that my husband felt I was worth the trouble. Daddies and daughters have a special relationship.
And, the father as a covering for the family delights in doing well for his children. But if the respect and love are there, it will endure. It also goes in the opposite direction, too.
I married that guy. We have been married almost 30 years. It was because we paid for our own wedding, and had no debts walking into marriage. Thanks for pointing this out. Some are just being godly dads and gatekeepers for their daughters and sons.
Thanks for addressing this issue, which is basically one of respect and good manners. I totally agree a young man who is unwilling to to talk to the father is acting selfishly and weak. He is being selfish and is not worthy of that young woman. I appreciate you bringing up this point.
When I was in high school my dad was one who wanted to meet my dates before we went out, especially if he did not know them.
Jonathon Hill, I really agree with not encouraging boys to give up—both from a feminine perspective and a parental one. Tenacity is attractive, but you also want men to conquer rejection and rise against struggle so you know they will be capable of providing and protecting in a very unfriendly world.
The part about an overbearing father-in-law was a good point, but since you need to leave parents and cleave to your spouse—the father-in-law should not be a deal-breaker unless the girl is not willing to leave her parents, as commanded. Oh, I agree so whole-heartedly with this!!!! My personal opinion is that there are too many people out there wanting everybody to agree with them that THEIR way of doing things is the only right or correct or best way.
It is so easy to swing back and forth from one extreme to the other. So, courtship was a reaction way back then—will we now swing back the other way??? God would love to clearly guide us if we care to listen!! My dad is not controlling in the slightest, but he is a fairly good judge of character. My wife sent me to her dad when I first expressed interest in dating her. From the first time I met with him until our engagement, he became the greatest asset for me in our dating relationship. He would occasionally meet with me and ask me how things are going, and then give me room to talk.
Being able to share my heart for her to a man that was closest to her, being able to bounce ideas and concerns off of him, and to have accountability from him was an amazing gift to me. He only enhanced our dating relationship courting relationship… whatever you want to call it , which was an incredible season of joy before the Lord.
I so agree with you Tish! My Dad is an excellent judge of character and I believe that he has saved me a lot of heartache over my 29 years because of his wisdom.
My parents are my best friends really. My Father in Law required this, and he said no to me the first time around. However, he did offer to get to know me. He is neither controling nor a problem for my family. He is well respected as an advisor and fellow man. That was the part of this post that bothered me, too!
I agree with you completely! What kind of message is that sending? This was my disagreement with the piece, also. Some of the girls who are from ultra conservative home-school courting families are worth it!!!
She might be worth getting to know. I have seen controlling. I have also seen caring, trusting, and protecting from an almost guaranteed train wreck. Just because someone expects that you will ask them before you just take their daughter out on a date does not mean that they are controlling.
With two teens, we are watching others closely. As a parent of a daughter 19 who has been somewhere between the traditional dating scene and the courtship mentality and a son 17 I struggle with both ends of the spectrum. Of course the answer lies not at either end of the spectrum but somewhere in the middle. It often takes two hands to think Biblicaly on the one hand — on the other hand.
You bring up a great point, one of many that I found troubling in this blog post. Coming from a homeschooling family myself I find that I actually agree with what the author of the article has said. I do not believe that any young man should have to ask a girls father for permission simply to take her out to dinner.
I wanted so bad to be noticed by a boy, to be asked on a date, but all the boys I knew also knew my parents rules and I was avoided as if I had the plague. I found myself bitter and resentful of the expectations my parents had, however lovingly they meant them, and moved as 1, miles away from my family. I found a church that had a thriving ministry to young people of my age and went out to dinner with several different young men. It was light-hearted and fun without pressure and I felt that I finally learned what I wanted in a husband.
I am currently engaged and planning my wedding to my best friend. A man I got to know and came to love by simply going to dinner or the movies as friends. By having private conversations in public places and by going to events that we both enjoyed. And it all came about because he asked me, not my father, if I wanted to go to dinner sometime. My parents have grown a lot through that experience my sister is now happily married and are actively in the business of matchmaking.
Having to go through the father day-one will almost certainly cause you to be too emotionally invested to think clearly about whether this girl is the one for you, so for your own emotional and spiritual safety, it is probably wise to stay away.
Long-time reader, first-time commenter here. I think besides good manners, in our society it is important to meet the young man. It also lets him know you value your daughter, and implies you expect he will also.
She is much less likely to find herself in a situation our of her control if the young man has talked with her Dad f ace to face first. We should marry someone to whom we are attracted to But, the fact that attraction can grow, and may not be at first glance, should apply to both the guy and the girl.
Guys, why not give the plainer girl a chance? She may be a total gem. We should always be realistic in our self-assessments. Treat the beautiful people like expensive artwork. Nice to look at, but not for us. Instead we should make the best of what we do have, keep hair clean and neat long on women if you can live with it , dress as well as we can afford to, maintain a reasonable level of physical fitness, and above all cultivate positive personality traits.
Be kind, patient, thoughtful, loving, gracious. Looks fade with time, but being pleasant company never gets old. Once married we should not neglect those things either, of course. Nor should the intimate side of marriage be neglected. Children may come, but remember to cultivate the married relationship.
We began with the idea of the courtship model with our sons now 20 and 18 , and have slid to a gentle dating approach. I really agree with a lot of what was said here. I see this not only as a problem in homeschool communities but as a problem in my church.
I think to get to know someone you need to go on dates with them and talk to them for a while. I also think there is a lot of pressure on young people to finish their schooling before they get married.
People need to know that it is ok to get married while you are in school. You will have a lot of fun and it may save you from a lot of regrets! This is just my two cents… Hope everyone reading this finds true love! This push for young marriage is really disturbing. I dont think you need a lot of money to marry , I do think you need a level of security and maturity. The economy is bad. Furthermore, the college crowd is at the highest risk of divorce. The human brain isnt fully developed until 22 which is when most finish college.
I know young single girls in college who pine for some kind of Disney romance they will be shocked by actual relationships. I really see it as a case-by-case issue, not a generational one. Thanks for this thoughtful, breath-of-fresh-air post! Not even He choses to control us, but asks us to submit in obedience so he can lead us. Very different from control. Thanks again, may God give us eyes to see and ears to hear.
I have two questions. At what age are you suggesting that dating is appropriate? These are kids of very consistent church attenders. Are you thinking 14ish, 16ish, 18ish…? As a mother of a 13 year old girl, I can understand that perception. Do you have any thoughts on this matter? I agree with you Jennifer. Being together with friends and getting to know them? I think the concept of courting or dating should be when one is considering the idea of getting married, not that they are necessarily READY to get married.
No, but they will go with their friend who happens to be a member of the opposite sex and they will go with a group of other friends.
My concern is that children of any age should not be left alone with a member of the opposite sex. Can they spend time in private conversation? Sure, there are plenty of picnic tables at the park or other areas to spend time talking with one another to get to know them.
However, when there are other people around, the pressure is off. Asking removes all doubt or confusion. Though I find a lot true with this, part of the reason we encourage youth to date is to meet new people in a personal way, and I suppose the ultimate goal is to find a spouse.
My husband and I started off hanging out in a group, but we really discovered our connection when we started hanging out one-on-one. However, it was all as friends. The end result was a year as friends who did a lot of things together, then dated went steady! This is very similar to my experience. At that point we were very intentional and had a short dating and engagement period before getting married. I know the Lord was working through it all— I never could have planned the way it happened.
So you do need to be careful about the messaging. I think one thing that could be very helpful is to get the other parents at your church in on the deal. If all the church-parents have the same concept of dating, you could have a safe community for your child to date in.
I got lucky that I met a wonderful Christian guy during freshman orientation of college and was able to reset my self-esteem. Meanwhile my brother did date during highschool, mostly because non-Christian girls more or less seduced him.
Dating, however you do it, is ultimately with marriage in mind at the end. They CAN be getting to know members of the opposite sex in group contexts.
If it is a group of friends, an introvert will be just as out there and willing to chat as anyone else. In fact in group environments, groups often break up and smaller conversations begin. The bible explicitly says so. In high school, I dated around at my church and school, going on dates with probably around girls. I already had a career as a software engineer started in high school, was going to college already, and had a vehicle, so in that respect I was a little ab-normal.
Most of the time I would just go on 1 date maybe 2 and if there was no spark, we would both move on without a great deal of emotional connection. I was in no way promiscuous no sex, kissing, hand holding, snugging, etc. My wife ended up dating me anyway and we ended up getting married 3 years later, our junior year of college.
In any case, I agree that evangelical church girls are really weird about dating. I once had a girl turn me down who was not interested in dating until finishing college ended up getting married in a couple years haha.
I think more people should be willing to go on non-serious dates with different people until you find someone with a real connection.
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He said yes but on one condition.
He is there to do a job. So if you get the big invite to meet them, treat it as though you were meeting his family.
Just not with your soldier! Sad Star April 26, at Meeting my dad was grand rapids online dating one sopdier a thousand stepping stones in the process soldier boy dating 2014 getting to know daging. Hello Here is my story and I am not sure where it is going… I met my solider on Match. We were being friends and treating each other with the respect of brother and sister in Christ. Faith is something you must have. We have been dating for three years but have known each other for six.
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