No More Mr. Nice Guy – an Interview With Dr. Robert Glover
From said courting, the 'nice guy' may hope to form a romantic relationship or may be motivated by a simple desire to increase his sexual activity. It does take some work to have empathy and observe people. Taking a closer look, every single person that was close enough to him to have expectations, including his family and older child, have all been rejected and picked apart by him. Sometimes we give gifts for no reason, sometimes a traditional gift giving day will come and go with only one of us giving something or none of us gifting the other. None of this occurs on a conscious level. And had to leave some unhealthy ones behind.
This was before cell phones became common. Dragon Lady Femme fatale Tsundere. He knew that I still had to stuggle with trust issues due to an earlier relationship in which I was also used and manipulated. Evcn typing this makes me want a moist red velvet cupcake with cream cheese frosting. Everyone had something nice and appreciative to say about him and it seemed as if he could do no wrong. Herold and Milhausen  claim that "while 'nice guys' may not be competitive in terms of numbers of sexual partners, they tend to be more successful with respect to longer-term, committed relationships.
Glover discusses soft males and boy-men. The following quote from Salon in his book is also spot on:. The hard-driving woman has to switch personae when she gets home. Many white, middle-class women have dodged this dilemma by finding themselves a nice, malleable boy-man who becomes another son in the subliminally matriarchal household. How many times have we read posts on this blog from women who wrote that they do not want a man who becomes another child while failing to recognize that their own behavior is what is driving this phenomenon?
Buck25 and I brought this problem up while discussing Bumble. A woman has to pick what kind of man she desires. If she desires a sensitive modern man, she should not be surprised when he fails to generate sexual tension. Absolutely, people cannot have it both ways. I am discovering that many men and women in my age cohort have learned this lesson the hard way, including yours truly.
I like how Dr. Glover describes the nice guy and the jerk as basically two sides of the same coin. I wonder if this same dynamic applies to women i. Love is the same thing. Starting from a place that assumes people are not to be trusted or loved rarely generates trust or love. I love generous men. I love generous women.
I love generous people in general. Probably because I AM one, and enjoy the trait that I value in myself, in others. Generosity is a wonderful relationship trait. I generously went with my father to all of his doctor visits for five years as he slowly died from renal failure. After 12 hours at the hospital, I would set my alarm for the time for his next medication, wake up and call to make sure he got his pain meds at 3am. I generously help my friends move.
I generously pick items off the top shelf for the short customers next to me in the store. I generously sing to my dogs when I give them a bath, so they are not scared. Where I do agree with you and Buck25 is that most of us fail to recognize our own part in what we experience.
Many women do treat their spouses like children, then complain that he acts like a child. But facing that would mean that 1 they might have to change themselves, which few people want to do; 2 have to let go of judging and blaming their spouse, which few people want to do; 3 admit that they are in a situation which might not be fixable, which would mean breaking up the relationship, changing their relationship status and affecting their finances.
That lack of approval and love, means that any time they do something wrong, they MUST cover it up, to feel ok about themselves, so that they can be a good person.
This dynamic exists with every person they encounter. I would argue that people who feel abundant, who believe they can have more, pursue more. Traditionally women have been in powerless positions that would cause them to have a mindset of lack, and would therefore settle for what they could get, leading to traditional females stereotypes.
Now that power is flipping, we are seeing the dynamic flip also — as in Dr Glover saying women need variety, while men are content with the same lady or pair of pants.
The problem is that for every women who is like you, there are at least one hundred women who are not remotely like you. These are the women for whom a man needs to remain in a mode where he ensures that the woman in his life lives in state where there is at least a slight level of uncertainty.
Most of the women I have encountered in my life rapidly lose sexual interest in a man they can have without continuous effort to earn his love. I do not know if is a self-esteem issue or basic primal behavior. I have never been desired as much by the woman in my life as when I was in my indifferent bad-boy stage. Evan brought up the issue of taming the bad boy, but I believe that a woman would lose interest in a bad boy if she managed to tame him.
In my humble opinion, it is the feeling that he will never truly be available that makes him irresistible. It is like an unspoken code where any man who can be had without continuous work is not worth having.
After all, a man with options is not easy to keep, and women only want men who other women desire. What I have heard women say are things like: I have had men who just stared at me longingly, and it only inspired in me not desire, but a desire to treat them gently so as to not hurt their feelings.
I am happy to accept courtesy and kindness that are proportional to how well a person knows me. Just date women who are offering what you want. The women who think all men are jerks.
The ones who think men just want young, hot women. The women who think men are like parking spots — all the good ones are taken, and the available ones are handicapped. Having been this kind of guy back in my teens and early twenties, I eventually came to the same conclusion as Robert Glover. I had a low risk tolerance for rejection. By trying to befriend women before dating them, I was not improving my odds of success. This one made me laugh. I understood the concept immediately … and how different these contracts to the other person.
I guess the thing is people differ on what overt contracts sound like. Sometimes you do do things truly not wanting things in return, sometimes you do. Do you tell the person the difference? This may not be popular, but I do like when people have the experience to know the differences in a situations like the above without me having to say it.
But yes, the simplest is to have everyone buy their own soup. But I bet I was wrong lotsa times and some people were just being nice. Men establish covert contracts too. And I also have modest expectations for getting soup.
The situation may not be equal. I probably fixed soup at a time and place when it was convenient for me. My request for soup may be more inconvenient, which may mean the person is unable to do that favor.
On the other hand, I made at least some effort to refuse favors where there may be some quid pro quo attached.
I can handle this myself. Could we invite them over to my place? Sometimes its hard to ask for help. Because it makes one vulnerable and the person could say no.
I had a tooth out in November and asked a friend for soup. She agreed and then forgot. It had been really hard to ask her. Asking was difficult enough and I was feverish and ill at the time. People do their best. Yes, I learned about the nature of our relationship but in that moment, I would have rather learned that when I felt healthier. Another friend obtained the address and time of the funeral next week.
Would it inconvenience me to go? These things usually do inconvenience me. But I like her a lot and would like to show her support. Is it assertive to ask? Of course, I agree it is. When all is fine, sure. The really sad thing about it is that this person genuinely believes they are just being nice, and any attempt to explain it to them is roundly rejected.
Both genders are being manipulative and fake. Both genders would benefit greatly by working on themselves to be more confident and true to themselves. But because it requires being vulnerable, possibly being told no or rejected, people rarely do this.
I love it, Karl, that you suggest each person do it themselves. When we require it of ourselves first, the conflicts with others tend to melt away. I call it going in the side door and not the front. If a woman is talking to a man about other men, she sees him as a friend. My motive is somewhat different than what you suggest causing conflicts to melt away though your comment was inherently correct.
This ties into the reason I clicked with what Evan teaches. We both believe that you can only change yourself, not other people. Despite what you just said, many people questioned my decision to ask women out when I barely knew them. As a side benefit, it tended to avoid the confusion that you describe. Why did I chat the woman up? I found her cute, and I wanted to see if she was interesting enough to ask out. That was the side benefit. There were two primary benefits.
My success rate was higher, and my emotional investment in the outcome was much lower. Also, I think you were the one who saw a woman you liked who was being chatted up by another man and you went right up to her and asked her out. You were a man with a plan. I like what he said about recognizing his own limiting beliefs.
The million dollar question is: What I mean is, I know that I have some limiting beliefs which affect how I view the opposite sex. Sounds corny, I know. I remember when I was in Spain in my 20s and I dated a lovely Spanish woman. I went to pick her up for a date and unbeknownst to me; I was under dressed by European standards. As we entered a taxi to go to dinner, she asked if we can stop somewhere before dinner. She asked me to try on a dress shirt and some slacks.
I tried them on. She told told me that that shirt and slacks made me look very handsome. Of course, I bought them and we went to dinner.
About a week later I realized that she helped me, but did not rub my nose in my sloppy fashion. Limiting beliefs are difficult and we all have them. And then they are reinforced by confirmation bias. Glover talks about his own limiting beliefs about women — how they can get sex whenever they want, how they have an overwhelming sense of entitlement, etc.
I remember years ago when I was on the manosphere, I came to understand common arousal triggers for women — and I was shocked and disgusted by what I found. It led me to become contemptuous of women and very negative about relationships and marriages in general.
But, as John wrote above, part of the way out of that hole is empathy, and the other part of the way out is understanding our own biases — that the logical models we create for ourselves only seem logical because we fail to include all the information. Because while it may be true that many women have some element of hypergamy in their psyche, that element may not be all that important in her overall psychological makeup and may be dwarfed by other things.
Because while we all have flaws and some of those flaws are systematic rather than individual , we are all trying to do the best we can, some more successfully than others. And applied to men — while it may be true that men objectify women sexually in their fantasies, that element of objectification may not be all that important in the psychological makeup of the individual man. While men might be, on average, less emotionally intelligent than women in some ways, many can learn and many have other qualities to make up for this.
We must eliminate our confirmation biases by actively searching for disconfirming evidence and giving that evidence at least as much weight as we do the confirming evidence — an act that is effortful, but pays dividends. That is the only way to overcome limiting beliefs. Maybe just challenge yourself? Limiting belief work is hard because at some point the person with the belief—you—has to change. Dating coaches say this is empowering because you have control over you.
I believe this in my soul. When I was little I was overlooked. Well, some men do like women with pixie cuts. And some women are really cute with short hair, like Halle Berry.
Well, there was that boy in high school, but he thought I was a tomboy. And the guy I like at work just looks through me. But men have liked me with it. Very tenacious limiting belief: And the pictures of long, healthy flowing hair all over reinforces this belief daily.
What happened when she was little was real and happened. Many men do like long hair. She has short hair. And some men do like it. She has to focus on that truth. It also helps to be around people who tell you a different story, but the real work is within. This comment was inspired by listening to five female co-workers today talk about their hair and none of them had good things to say about it.
I like my own hair but that took some work to love it. The qualities I find attractive in men probably differ, at least slightly, from what other women find attractive in men. But the qualities I find frustrating or unattractive in men, seem to be pretty universal among women. For instance, when Mike Pence made the comment about not being alone with women out of respect for his wife, I was taken aback.
I thought it was rare. But when Evan made a similar comment, I was shocked. And for me, sexual weakness is unattractive. However, since most men seem to struggle in that area, I guess you either accept it or not, and if you choose to accept it, hopefully the man you choose will be aware of his weaknesses and love you enough to not risk your relationship.
At my last job, I worked with and talked to a lot of men. Are they struggling with saying no to sexual offers? To counter what Jeremy wrote: I am disgusted by that. Glover said one of his limiting beliefs about women is that they are gold diggers. I was trying to share one of my limiting beliefs about men. I believe many men are slaves to their own sex drive. It controls them instead of them controlling it. Some women ARE gold diggers. Some men ARE slaves to their own sex drive.
The question posed was how does one who acknowledges that they have limiting beliefs change them without denying reality. Read what Chance wrote.
I do think that testosterone drives men in a way that having kids drives women. We socialize men that they should and can be attracted to many women and express that.
I have heard of other cultures where this is true. They have that socialization and testosterone. So they put checks in place to fall in with what society dictates. Some men are slaves to their sex drive. I would first rephrase it so there is no judgment. Some men have true difficulty managing their sex drives. They might have naturally lower libidos, though. Is a man having serious difficulty managing his drive because he just feels the desire most of the time or is he having difficulty because he acts on it?
The two men I met? So there is some control there. I want to eat it. I love, love cake. And I try not to be around it. Does this make me a weak person? Staying out of proximity is a way of controlling the desire. But do I still want all the cake? Every day, every single day. Evcn typing this makes me want a moist red velvet cupcake with cream cheese frosting. Sorry, getting distracted from your point. I think other factors besides looks are at work for women to have attraction.
I honestly think culture and how women are raised as a lot to do with it. I get the feeling Chance is gonna regret that one, about like I did a certain post I made a couple years back!! So do I, Shaukat, so do I. You think the percentage is THAT high? Ten percent on first meeting, and even that percentage is high.
Depending on their life circumstances such as where they live and who they come into contact with daily, most women would feel like they fell into a Magic Mike movie if they found 1 in 3 men sexually appealing. Yeah, if Chance literally meant what he said, he should be lauded as a generous, charitable soul. Find too many women attractive? You have no standards. Find few women attractive? You punch above your weight.
I did once and then online dating came and really changed my perception of attraction to men. Is attraction to a photo real attraction? A photo is one moment in time. Before the computer, I met men and boys and I got to know them first.
Sure, I assess their attractiveness. But while I could be attracted to the hottest boy when I was 12, I also was attracted to the non-hot boy who was nicest to me. Actually, I was attract to the non-hot boy first. I always thought that really attractive men would be mean to me. With a guy less hot, I can let go and relax and that attraction just blossoms. Something tells me Chance likes to drop a bomb, stand back and watch all the women get riled up.
It makes a big difference. We all have fantasies. For me, personally, all I can tell from a photo is if someone is aesthetically handsome. I have to meet him in person to hear his voice, watch his body language, feel his energy.
It has nothing to do with you. I also think you might benefit from lowering your standards just a tad. Some men here expressed that they are far less discriminating about whom they will have sex with than are women — this is COMMON among men, and has a lot to do with both biology and upbringing.
Yet you were extremely put off by it. This is not unlike what I experienced years ago. Men and women are different. And when we discover our misconceptions, we get put off….
That although I might think it irrational for women to be attracted to male selfishness, that selfishness need not make up much of the overall picture to be effective. Actually on another post Chance said he would sleep with a woman who was fairly attractive even if he found her personality insufferable. Emily — I was being serious, and S. I think most men have the desire to sleep with the majority of women if the opportunity presents itself.
Coffee shop near university? Theodora — excellent point regarding not being able to win. I thought that I was simply restating what women say all the time…. It was an emotional reaction on my part.
I forget that some men come on here for less than generous reasons. How could I not be disgusted by that? KK and Sylvana also were disgusted. You have written about your need for validation. For me, anyway, I need to feel someone is specifically picking me out, not that I happened to be standing there and breathing. There are certainly women who behave similarly.
Their partners are there to serve their needs. It flies in the face of how men and women interact in the initial stages of getting to know each other. I would venture to guess that most women have the same experience as you.
If men were just as picky as women, no one would ever get together. Think of all the loving husbands you know. The men who love their wives very deeply. Think about all the seemingly happy people you see out in public.
However, those men came to love their partner very deeply. What Evan says is true…. If they decide to stay with you forever, then they found love with you. I had a friend who was on match a few months ago. She said she felt as if many of the men who she went out on an initial first date with were asking her out for a second date because she was reasonably attractive and pleasant enough to be around.
She was surprised when they wanted to go out again. Granted, there are usually loads of phone calls first, but still. Back when I met people in real life it was simpler. It was all there in the first minutes of meeting a person. And if that second part is yes, to kind, safe, and I feel like I like him, we are good to go on my end.
I shut the part of me that assesses that down , like roadwork on the weekends. Orange cones, no access. Those are probably good questions to ask, but I think it may be difficult to determine if you feel safe with someone you just met. Nothing drains me of every sexual impulse faster …. Other than the basics I mentioned, which are physical but not in the way many people think, I try to connect with people on a human level first. Opposite of creeper vibes. Even with extroverts and men who are exciting.
Maybe a few times when I ignored my intuition because of attraction. I try not to ignore my intuition anymore. Sometimes the attraction meter is off, seriously. Or if a small miracle happens and I inadvertently, throughout my day, stumble upon someone who I find very appealing … then I think about it. I know for sure how attracted I am by then. But I do know by the end if I want the guy to ever kiss me. Not even, boom, I want to kiss this person. Just the basics about grooming and if I like his look and then personality on the heels of that.
Wanting-to-have-sex attraction takes bit longer than that for me. Usually a few hours later and thinking about it all over again. If they call or send me an e-mail afterward that helps with attraction too. I can feel it. The availability of the hot tub was a surprise. I borrowed a suit from the hostess of the party. This guy made a big production of it. Kind of divebombed in. Does that thought lead to attraction? Idk the guy I mentioned was married.
It seems the moral high ground comes merely from a percentage. Finally, of course I was being tongue-in-cheek when I called Chance charitable and generous. Because nobody wants to have sex or not, to date or not out of charity. We are all doing it or not to get something for ourselves. One more reason why nobody has the moral high ground in this aspect.
Type 1 mindreading is the notion that if our partner loved us, they would do a certain amount of detective work on their own volition, to determine very specific details about what we want — and thereby demonstrate their love.
Type 2 mindreading, to contrast, is not something specific that requires detective work. Rather, it is simply applying something we already know or ought to know. Example — my wife likes backrubs, especially after hard days.
Application — wife comes home from work sighing heavily. Tells me she had a hard day. She looks at me sadly, shakes her head a bit, and wanders off. Now, is she expecting me to be a mind-reader? In a Type-2 sense, I suppose. But is that unreasonable? Should she have to ask? Would it not indeed be a sign of love if I knew her well enough and considered her situation and simply gave her what I KNOW she likes? Back to your statement, Mrs. In a Type 2 sense I disagree totally — in fact, love is quite well measured by the ability to mindread in a Type 2 sense……unless your partner is someone who totally lacks empathy or intuitiveness.
That would be owning her own desires, instead of making you responsible for her. By asking, she would be taking responsibility for meeting her own needs. Then if you can give her the back rub, great. You are not a bad person for saying no. She has many other options for meeting that need to feel better after a hard day — go to a massage person, talk to her best friend on the phone, pet the dog, take a walk, etc.
Notice how none of those things are contingent on another specific person, yet her needs are still being met? If person A can offer it to person B without compromising their essential self, then great. We were so convinced that we had finally found a guy who would never toy with our feelings and leave us heartbroken. Now we have to come to terms with the fact that we have been fooled and that what he presented us with was nothing more than a facade.
Nice Guy never existed is extremely painful, and we often cling to the hope that maybe if we are just patient enough, we will eventually get him back. The cold hard truth is: The narcissist I dated was a textbook hypocrit and a master at pretending to be a wonderful, caring human-being.
He said that because he was so caring he often had to fix the damage done by others especially in relationships and that it would therefore be so much easier to be more of an asshole. He made it seem as if he was always neglecting his own ambitions, plans and wishes, in order to please others and be considerate of their feelings.
Everything he did was seemingly a product of his big and noble heart, and I was naive enough to believe him. At the beginning of our relationship he told me that he had the feeling I had sold myself short in the past due to my low self-esteem. He assured me I had every right to be more confident, as I was — according to him — extremely smart, pretty and kind. He knew that I still had to stuggle with trust issues due to an earlier relationship in which I was also used and manipulated.
I found it hard to put my trust in Mr. Unavailable, because I feared being let down again. He was really upset about me having those trust issues, because for him it was just another proof of the fact that he had to fix the emotional damage done by others, as he was such a nice guy and others were just plain assholes.
He assured me in every possible way that I could let those trust issues go with him, that he was not like the indifferent asshole I had last dated, and that he would always care about my feelings and treat me with the respect I deserved. He even got angry whenever my trust issues would come to the surface again and urge me to finally let them go. According to him, he was not like the asshole I last dated and it was unfair to let him suffer and to not trust him because of him.
Of course he made me feel extremely guilty and I was convinced that I was not being fair by letting my trust issues affect our relationship. I worked really hard on letting those issues go and was eventually able to do so. I began to really believe that Mr. Unavailable was indeed interested in me and worried about my feelings and my well-being. I found it save to put my trust in him and to let go of my suspicions.
Looking back at the relationship now, I deeply regret that I believed him and that I let my guard down and made myself vulnerable. He basically urged me into trusting him just to manipulate and emotionally abuse me.
I let my guard down and got nothing but heartbreak, disappointments and despair as a reward. I never would have thought that the guy who so vehemently assured me that he would always treat me right, would turn out to be the guy who would break my heart in the most painful way possible. I was so convinced he would never let me down and would always treat me with respect: In the end, he was the guy who disappointed me most in my entire life and the guy who caused me so much pain like no one else has ever done before.
His supposed innate goodness seemed to extend to everyone around him: He prepared coffee for his students, he went out to buy tea for his colleagues, he motivated his exgirlfriend to give up the job she hated so much and to upgrate her education at least that is what he told me. One time he even told me how he talked to a prostitute in Costa Rica, trying to convince her to make more out of her life. Back then, I was impressed by those stories and believed that he was a model of nobility and selflessness.
He would constantly assure me of his deep regard and respect for me, continually complimenting me for my good-looks, my intelligence, my kindness blabla. He would motivate me to have more self-esteem and to believe in myself. I was convinced I finally found the perfect guy who would never dare to break my heart and let me down. Because he was so talented at pretending to be Mr. Nice Guy all the people around him seemed to adore him. He was a very popular teacher and his students just loved him.
His colleagues valued him for his good-manners and his conversational skills. Everyone had something nice and appreciative to say about him and it seemed as if he could do no wrong. After he had finally shown his true colors to me, it was extremely difficult to let go of the illusion that he was the perfect gentleman.
Everyone adored him and so I questioned my own judgment. After all, how can someone who is so popular, be the monster you think he is? I found it extremely hard to believe that his nobility and goodness was a facade. He even managed to fool my family and friends: They all loved him after meeting him and my best friend even jokingly told me that she gave me permission to marry him.
Letting go of the illusion is difficult and painful and I was very reluctant to do so. It was also nearly impossible to talk to others about the way he emotionally abused and manipulated me. Fortunately, I have a loving family and a great best friend and they believed and supported me unconditionally. So to sum it up, the tendency of many narcissists to put on a facade of nobility and goodness is very harmful for their victims.
We let down our guard and put our trust in them, only to be emotionally abused and manipulated. In the end they have not only broken our hearts, but completely destroyed our trust and left us feeling confused, angry and empty. It is difficult not to question our own judgments and to accept the fact that everything they presented us with was nothing but a facade. In addition to that, we often find it hard to reveal our feelings to others, as they are still convinced he is the model of goodness and nobility he pretended to be.
Whenever you find yourself in this trap, you need to believe in your own judgement and free yourself from the unhealthy relationship to your narcissist. We should never hold on to them out of a misguided belief that we might be at fault or that they might at some point go back to being the nice, caring and loving guys they were at the beginning of your relationship.
Face the cold hard facts and save yourself some time and energy: It was nothing but a facade! We people, trust people like Mr. Nice who actually just pretend to be nice, so true. If we get into him, we start losing ourselves; and eventually we fall in love with them. Nice try to act all stud, they never cared about our feelings and probably they never will. This was a game for them.
We will try our level best, but will not be able to return to our real self. Like Liked by 2 people. You are so right! For them it was just a game, our affection was like a trophy for them and once they attained it, they lose interest in us…We are left heartbroken and have to accept that our feelings were never returned. It is so painful! Thanks for your comment. And we still feel for them and ruin our lives. The theory of realising, that someone somewhere is waiting for me, starts to fade and at a point; it just ends.
We expect a lot, and get nothing in return! And feelings are mutual! They also make me cry because they are a mirror of what I feel but often cannot really express. You are a wonderful person and somewhere out there, someone who will really appreciate you the way you deserve it is waiting for you!
Imsges: no more mr nice guy dating
Altruism as a courtship display:
Glover talks about his own limiting beliefs about women — how they can get sex whenever they want, how they have an overwhelming sense of entitlement, etc.
This guy sounds like a textbook narcissist, including how he presents so well in public. Of course he made me feel extremely no more mr nice guy dating and I was convinced that I was not being fair by letting my trust issues affect our relationship. It is so confusing. If I had chosen poorly or without enough attention to what I really wanted in a relationship,? A woman has to pick what kind of man she desires. It takes all of one sentence.
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