Animals in the Book of Mormon: Challenges and Perspectives
His personal blog is www. Why is it wrong to want a chance at those blessings and opportunities? I can wear nice clothing similar to what I wear in my everyday professional life to church.
Happiness exists within you!
Radiocarbon or carbon dating is a technique for dating ancient artifacts, based on the radioactive decay of carbon to carbon This should be completed some time this year and be a very handy guide for leaders and women alike. Yet, most could well be the animals we think they are. I am an inspiration to others! We want to serve. Furthermore, the core of a bison horn was found a few years ago some 25 miles north of Coalcoman. When I got back to base camp a couple people that said they would go into the park with me had left and others were waiting to go into the park in a few hours.
Mostly these are extant animal species. However, there are instances of extinct animals being associated with pre-Columbian man in America.
These finds are increasing as more field studies take place. Cattle, oxen and cows are some of the animals listed in the Book of Mormon. They could be ones we envision with these names today.
However, these names could possibly apply to other closely related forms. It seems likely, though, that there is more than one kind of animal indicated. Why list three separate names for just one kind of animal? In any event good explanations exist for separate types of bovids being present. Different kinds of these animals could have been brought over by the Jaredites. However, in the Book of Ether 9: The American Bison apparently survived throughout various regions of Mexico and as far south as Nicaragua until fairly recent times.
Wild cattle include living and extinct species of bison as well as other extinct closely related types. Shown here are two extinct species, Bison latifrons left and Bison antiquus right. Illustration courtesy of the George C. Page Museum in Los Angeles, California. Different species of bovids are and have been native to the New World.
The bison misnamed, buffalo is one, for which there are different species see Figure 1. Although now extinct, the shrub-ox and southern woodland muskox could have survived well past the end of the Pleistocene. When first described by paleontologists, these animals were placed in the same genus as modern cattle Bos.
This is similar to the mammoth Mammuthus being placed in the same genus as the elephant Elephas by early paleontologists. Current practices show that the American bison can be semi-domesticated.
Certainly it is conceivable that both the woodland muskox and shrub-ox were capable of this as well. This is substantiated by some living northern muskoxen being semi-domesticated. Bos taurus is a basic type which represents cattle in general, and apparently the species from which most of our modern cattle descended. Its remains have been identified from a number of archaeological sites including some from the Yucatan Peninsula.
This figure comes from Amazonwiki. Bones of domesticated cattle Bos taurus — see Figure 2 have been reported from different caves in the Yucatan Peninsula of Mexico. It is especially interesting that along with these cow and horse remains, human artifacts were found in association with them! The indication is that domesticated cattle and the horse coexisted with humans in pre-Columbian time.
The only references to swine in connection with the Nephites are negative and proverbial which indicates that they were known to them, but were considered unclean or unfit for eating, at least in times of righteousness when the Nephites were keeping the law of Moses 3 Nephi 7: They may also have been familiar to them through their contacts with the Lamanites and other indigenous peoples who raised and kept them.
No evidence for Old World pigs true swine has been found showing that they were present in the Americas before the time of Columbus. If we assume swine were brought over by the Jaredites, we still do not know how long they might have survived before becoming extirpated. Being in limited numbers in a restricted region, any evidence of their former existence might not have been detected to date.
The widespread and intensive battles between different Jaredite factions could have been instrumental in their demise in Mesoamerica. Platygonus shown here is an example of an extinct peccary that might have been present when man was in Mesoamerica.
It was somewhat larger than the peccaries that live in the region today. It can be seen that both types are very pig-like and they both could easily be called a pig.
While not a true pig, the peccary, known throughout much of Mesoamerica and South America, is most definitely a pig-like beast and is closely related to it. Presently two distinct species of peccary live in Mesoamerica. These include the Collared Peccary Pecari tajacu and the White-lipped Peccary Tayassu pecari , both of which can be found in the tropical regions near the Tuxtlas Mountains of the Yucatan. They were hunted and eaten as early as Olmec times.
Remains of these animals have been found associated with man for several thousands of years. There is a paleo-Indian carving of an extinct camel sacrum in the shape of a peccary. A Picture of this bone is shown by Evans.
Sheep and goats are very closely related animals, and can be confused with each other. It might not be wise to take all those named at face value. Yet, most could well be the animals we think they are.
Sheep mentioned in the Bible were probably like sheep in the Book of Mormon. Of course it needs to be kept in mind that world-wide many different species exist. The Jaredite record Ether 9: The Nephite record does not. However, it seems most likely that they raised these animals. Sheep were probably among the animals brought to America by the Jaredites, although they were not stated explicitly by name Ether 6: They are useful for both food and clothing.
In addition to Old World sheep, apparently brought to the New World by the Jaredites, there are sheep native to America. The most common type is the Mountain Sheep, Ovis canadensis.
Their current geographic range extends south only to northern Mexico. However, their past range was more extensive, as was their habitat before human settlements expanded.
Goats are mentioned among the animals once had by the Jaredites Ether 9: There is no indication in the text that the Lehites brought goats with them to the land of promise; however, it is possible that they may have been included among those flocks and herds brought by the Jaredites in their journey over the sea Ether 6: They would have been a useful animal to both the Jaredites and Nephites, just as they have been for man through the ages in the Old World.
Evidence of goats associated with pre-Columbian man also comes from caves in Yucatan. In post-biblical Jewish literature some Jewish writers distinguished between wild and domestic cattle such as goats. Both were considered clean and could be eaten, but only the domestic variety was thought acceptable for sacrifice.
This literature, however, dates to centuries after the texts of the Hebrew Bible were first written and to a time after the destruction of the temple when the practice of animal sacrifice had been discontinued.
We do not know if this later distinction was applied in earlier times. Both of them were probably of comparable size to Old World goats. Its geographic range, though, currently only extends south from southwest Alaska down to the northwest United States. Even with a possible extended range for this animal during Book of Mormon time, it is extremely unlikely it got as far south as Mesoamerica. A closely related, but extinct, species is Oreamnos harringtoni. This goat did have a much more southerly distribution, extending into Mexico.
While this goat might have survived much past the terminal Pleistocene along with other animals, there is not sufficient evidence yet for this. The animal shown here is Mazama americana , or the Red Brocket deer, that is a common mammal found in Mesoamerica.
It can readily be seen how this animal could be confused with a goat. Antlers are shed each year, while horns are not. This illustration is from Amazonwiki. It has already been indicated that a referenced animal in the Book of Mormon could actually be something somewhat different, but had a similar appearance.
There is an animal now living in Mesoamerica that fits this description, the Red Brocket deer, Mazama americana. Unlike other deer it has but a single goat-like horn — which is really an antler that is shed and regrown annually like other cervids.
When the early Spanish explorers first visited what is now the southeastern United States, they encountered Native Americans who raised semi-domesticated deer. In all these regions they visited, the Spaniards noticed herds of deer similar to our herds of cattle.
These deer bring forth and nourish their young in the houses of the natives. During the daytime they wander freely through the woods in search of their food, and in the evening they come back to their little ones, who have been cared for, allowing themselves to be shut up in the courtyards and even to be milked, when they have suckled their fawns.
The only milk the natives know is that of the does, from which they make cheese. Additional evidence suggests that deer may have been tamed or semi-domesticated in pre-Columbian Mesoamerica as well.
Ethnohistorical sources also mention the Mesoamerican custom of caring for deer. In light of the evidence for deer shepherding in pre-Columbian times, it is interesting that early Spanish colonists in Mesoamerica associated native Mesoamerican brocket deer with the goat. They have only two horns like goats and are not as large as deer. In post-Columbian times the Maya, recognizing a similarity between the European goat and the New World brocket deer, gave the European animal the name temazate from the Nahuatl word for brocket deer tamazatl.
Since some Mesoamerican deer could fulfill many of the same purposes as goats, it is quite possible that Mesoamerican deer acquired a similar designation among peoples in the Book of Mormon. Another possibility for the wild goat is the American Pronghorn, known exclusively from North America. It has a single horn single in females but bifurcated in males.
While extinct, it is known from latest Pleistocene sediments and could certainly have co-existed with man. This antilocaprid is smaller than the extant form, but is more goat-like in appearance. If known to the Jaredites in the land northward, the pronghorn might well have been considered to be a goat. Since this animal was not known in the Old World, it is likely when encountered it would be called after a similar-looking Old World animal. This figure of a late Pleistocene landscape in North America shows two Columbian mammoth on the right with extinct bison on the left in the background.
Good evidence shows that these extinct forms were contemporaneous with man on this continent. Only in the record of the Jaredites in the Book of Mormon is there a mention of elephants. As explained earlier, this undoubtedly referred to the mammoth which is a true elephant. Distant relatives, the mastodonts which represent other types of proboscideans, have lived in North America but were probably not the animal to which reference was being made. Joseph Smith most likely knew what an elephant was at the time he did the translating from the gold plates.
However, not much was given about this animal in his translation of the Book of Ether. It was said to be an especially useful animal to man Ether 9: Uses of the elephant for man have already been stated. Presumptively this elephant as previously stated was the Columbian Mammoth, Mammuthus columbi. This animal ranged over most of North America, including Mesoamerica. Its fossils are numerous throughout northern Mesoamerica. But this species was limited to the northern areas of North America and Eurasia.
Evidence for the survival of the elephant can be found in Native American myths and traditions. Some of these traditions may be rooted in Native American discoveries of the bones of extinct fauna, while other myths could be founded on actual encounters with living species which had notable elephant-like characteristics.
The Penobscot culture hero Snow Owl is said to have gone on a long journey to a far valley in search of his missing wife. When he reached the valley he saw what appeared to be hills without vegetation moving slowly about. Upon closer inspection he found that these were the backs of huge animals with long teeth which drank water for half a day at a time and when they laid down could not get back up. Snow owl was able to trap the large beasts by making them fall on sharpened stakes where he then was able to shoot and kill them.
Pre-Columbian traditions from Mexico tell of monstrous ogre-like giants who once inhabited the region and were subsequently killed following the arrival of Aztec ancestors. These tales attribute some human characteristics to these legendary giants, while other ones seem less so. The giants were said to have long tapering arms and could tear up trees as if they were lettuce.
This was long enough to bring them to the time of the Jaredites. A date for a mammoth in northern North America was cited at 3, years before the present. The fact that known dates of mammoths in Mesoamerica are numerous up to the end of this epoch helps support this view. It should be pointed out that the mammoth never did range as far south as South America. Man and mammoth have been found in association with each other at a number of Mesoamerican localities.
Several petroglyphs dating to ancient times in Mesoamerica depict elephant-like animals. Martin reported that spear points have been associated with fossil mammoths at a number of sites, some still embedded in bones. The usefulness of the elephant has previously been given. Of all the animals named in the Book of Mormon, cureloms and cumoms have to be the most peculiar — and mysterious.
While all the other animals seem familiar to us, these two definitely are not. Apparently cureloms and cumoms were not animals known to Joseph Smith as well. It seems that they were outside his realm of experience.
Quite possibly these are extinct forms. Well, they had to have been animals that lived in Book of Mormon lands, ostensibly in Mesoamerica, and during the time that the Jaredites lived there. LDS archaeologist, John Sorenson was of the opinion that cureloms and cumoms were probably large animals.
This seems reasonable as in Ether 9: Among other things, they likely were beasts of burdens. Using limited criteria we will try to narrow the search for identifications to the most probable animals.
One relatively large animal currently living in Mesoamerica and also now living in South America and Southeast Asia , but doubtfully known to Joseph Smith, is the tapir.
In the past this animal had a much greater northward geographic range in North America. It lived all through Mexico and north well into the United States. At least one species of Pleistocene tapir somewhat exceeded the living form in size. A large extant individual can grow to pounds or more, and reach a height of three and one-half feet. The problem with this animal qualifying as a curelom or cumom is its usefulness.
They are not noted as an especially good food item and more importantly are not easily tamed for use. Another animal to consider is the American Pronghorn often mistakenly called an antelope. Its current geographic range is from Canada to central Mexico.
They are occasionally tamed, and sometimes even semi-domesticated. There is apparently no record of this. These are only deer-sized animals, which includes extinct species. While known from northern Mexico, it appears that they did not inhabit Mesoamerica proper. They are a plains type of animal. The edentates, or xenarthrans as they are known scientifically, are a relatively diverse group of New World mammals.
With the exception of the armadillo which ranges into the southwestern United States, these animals presently live in Mesoamerica south to South America. Anteaters and tree sloths belong to this group. All these are animals with which Joseph Smith would probably have had no acquaintance.
While living forms are all relatively small, many extinct species were large. The extinct ground sloths for example were very large, the largest being 18 feet in length and approaching the size of a small adult elephant.
Some of these ground sloths lived in Mesoamerica to the end of the Pleistocene, and probably longer. There are several localities where ground sloth hair and dung are abundant in caves, some with associated human artifacts. Additionally, even skin and nail materials are known. Based on brain size determined from endocranial dimensions of the skull , ground sloths would not likely have been sufficiently intelligent to train for work.
The locomotion of these large beasts must have been very slow and awkward. So, what other Mesoamerican animals are left from which to choose for a curelom or cumom? One good candidate in our opinion is a member of the camel family. The present New World members of this family are the llamas.
It seems quite likely that they would have been. Although llamas are no longer native to North America, extinct species were. And like other large mammals thought to be extinct by the close of the Pleistocene Epoch, some probably lived on much longer. To illustrate this, an undated skull of a llama from a lava tube cave-like cavity in Utah was recovered with dried muscle tissue intact and an oily residue in the bone.
Several archaeological sites, including some in Mesoamerica, have yielded co-occurrences of llamas and man. One of us WEM saw the figure of a llama carved in a stela from an archaeological site in central Mexico. Again it should be emphasized that the last recorded date for an extinct animal does not mean it vanished from earth at that time. Undoubtedly small populations survived for at least hundreds if not thousands of years later.
Two extinct species of llama a type of camel are shown here. Both are known from Mesoamerica and probably existed when men came into this region. Some of the extinct llamas were considerably larger than living forms.
One type stood seven feet tall at the shoulder, and another species six feet. Not only is there good evidence for the co-existence of American llamas and man, but also that these animals could be domesticated.
It was stated by anthropologist Ricardo Latcham that New World camelids the llamas were domesticated in pre-Columbian times. As far as being an especially useful animal, consider the uses for which the llama has been put by man.
As stated by Walker et al. It has also been shown that they are good at guarding flocks. All these items make the llama an extremely useful animal for man. With the larger size of the extinct llamas this would have been especially so.
Their fossils are known from Mesoamerica. It seems to us that this animal could well be either the curelom or cumom mentioned in the Book of Ether. The American Mastodon Mammut americanum is the elephant-like animal shown here.
Knight, a famous illustrator of past life. Courtesy of Wikipedia Commons. If the llama in fact represents a curelom or cumom, what could the other one be? Again, it has to be one which lived in the right place at the right time; that is, when and where the Jaredites were living. And it also must be an animal especially useful to man. Although now extinct, two viable candidates are ones related to the elephant.
They belong to the same group Order Proboscidea. The two species involved superficially look quite similar, but have long separate histories. One is a gomphothere with the genus name of Cuvieronius , and the other a mastodon named Mammut.
The latter is the American Mastodon. Like the elephant, both Cuvieronius and Mammut are very large animals having tusks and a proboscis, or trunk. Both of these were intelligent animals based on the size and configuration of their braincases as determined from fossils.
Consequently, it can be seen that they were capable of being tamed and trained, but probably not domesticated. One, or both, of these could qualify as a curelom or cumom.
This is a distinct possibility. But if the llama is one of these animals, then a pick needs to be made between the gomphothere and the mastodon as a curelom or cumom. This pick is not an easy one to make. However, there is a possibility that with such similarity in appearance, that these animals might have been called by the same name curelom or cumom.
This figure is by courtesy of Wikipedia Commons. Cuvieronius and Mammut coexisted into the late Pleistocene in Mesoamerica, with the former being more common in the southern part of this land and the latter in the more northern part. In fact Cuvieronius is fairly well known in South America where there is no record of Mammut.
According to Scott Drennan personal communication there are several associations of Cuvieronius and man in that continent. Not as much detail is known about the detailed age and distribution of Cuvieronius in North America, however. As far as usefulness of either the American Mastodon or Cuvieronius, both would have made a good beast of burden and one that could move large objects. They could probably rival the elephant mammoth in this. While the mastodon was shorter, it was also stockier.
Other potential uses for either proboscidean would be similar to the elephant as well: That the elephant and mastodon were used for food has been shown by various prehistoric kill sites. One such site demonstrated a projectile point embedded in a mastodon rib. That man in pre-Columbian time was associated with extinct llamas, elephants, mastodons and gomphotheres is a matter of record.
The horse and ass, like sheep and goats, are very closely related mammals. This can be seen in the biological classification of the former two, both belonging to the genus, Equus. Equid fossils are one of the most common and diverse of large vertebrates throughout the Pleistocene of North America, including Mesoamerica. Many species have been named.
Horses first came into being in North America one of the earliest records coming from Baja, California , and from there spread to the rest of the world through natural dispersals. The fossil history of the horse including the ass shows that this animal was most numerous and varied in North America.
It has not been satisfactorily explained why after so much success here, they became extinct. After being re-introduced they have done well in a feral state.
Although it is commonly held that both the horse and ass became extinct in the Americas at the close of the Pleistocene c. Some researchers in the past have suggested that references to horses in the Book of Mormon could refer to other animals in the land of promise which had characteristics which in certain ways resembled those of the horse or the ass.
However, this does not mean that they survived everywhere in the Americas or that they were numerous. Growing evidence, though, supports a post-Pleistocene survival of very small populations. Therefore, references to horses in the Book of Mormon text seem very plausible.
We feel that there is a strong case for the survival of the horse well past the close of the Pleistocene Epoch into the limited regions occupied by Book of Mormon peoples in the Formative Mayan Period. It is possible that the subsequent disasters associated with the death of Christ 3 Nephi or the wars and famines of later years Alma If there were limited numbers of horses and asses in Nephite or Lamanite cultures, it would not be surprising that evidence for them could be very difficult to find.
The horse and the ass along with other animals dispersed more than once between Asia and North America via Beringia This was a very large late Pleistocene land bridge that existed between Asia and Alaska. The Beringia land bridge formed and reformed throughout much of the Pleistocene Epoch. This produced common species between the two continents.
As many began adapting to new environments, new species came into being. The horse was one of these animals so affected. Similarity has and still does cause confusion as to which species are valid. If the Jaredites did bring horses to America from Asia, it would be very unlikely if they could be told apart from those that came through by natural dispersals.
According to Azzaroli, a noted expert on Pleistocene horses, Equus ferus a modern caballine horse was widespread in the Pleistocene of Eurasia and well represented in North America during the latest Pleistocene. Horses were extremely abundant in all North America prior to the close of the Pleistocene, about 10, years ago. However, evidence clearly shows that horses lived on well past this time.
Some datings on horses indicate they were around in Mesoamerica about 2, years ago. Of course their numbers were vastly diminished by then.
The illustration here is by courtesy of Wikipedia Commons. It seems reasonable to assume that the Jaredites had domesticated horses. Certainly they were present among the Nephites and Lamanites Enos 1: Their domestication by these peoples should not be surprising.
The horse has been domesticated by various peoples for millennia. Evidences for this keep pushing the date back. Outram and others placed this date to about B.
This is based on discoveries in Eastern Europe and central Asia. An even earlier date was suggested by Achilli et al. Whether they obtained horses along the way and brought these with them is not that important.
As noted above, there were horses native to America which were most likely in existence then. It cannot be overstated that extinctions take time.
Too often the impression left when extinctions are discussed is that they were all very sudden. Almost always with groups of organisms the extinctions took place over thousands to many thousands of years. And as already noted, some plants and animals thought to be extinct turned out to still be living even millions of years later. This of course excludes modern species of the bison, elk, moose and bears. The proboscideans and horses, thought to have become extinct at that time, have now been shown to have lived on much past the 10, year limit that was placed on them.
In the past few decades an ever increasing body of evidence shows that some of these taxa survived much longer. It should be kept in mind, though, that these animals were being restricted to various refugia. In time the refugia would disappear and the animal would finally become extinct. As an example the Woolly Mammoth thought to be extinct by the close of the Pleistocene, survived much past this event on Wrangle Island northwest of Alaska.
Radiocarbon dates demonstrate that this animal was still living until approximately B. Of course their populations were ever dwindling.
A reason more is not known about the horse and other extinct animals in Mesoamerica is that their remains are much less likely to be preserved and also less likely to be found when they are.
In general organisms do not preserve well after death in subtropical and tropical environments. This is because of a high rate of decay in them. Even bone decomposes very quickly. Therefore all evidence of previous life is soon destroyed. Another problem is that in these environments vegetation usually thickly covers sediments that might contain fossils. This makes them very difficult to find when they do exist.
One exception is caves. Here organisms stand a much better chance of preservation in humid regions. This is true in Mesoamerica. The caves found in the Yucatan Peninsula have produced some rare and important finds.
Both extinct and extant faunas have been discovered with human artifacts. There are a few post-Pleistocene, pre-Columbian dates for horses that have come to light in the past several years. A recent discovery in southern California serves as an example. One was from a cave near El Paso, Texas. The date here was determined to be between and B. Another radiocarbon date was from a cave in Colorado, providing an age of to A. A third date on horse bone from a cave in the Yucatan has been dated between and A.
Temple-worthiness requires good works: There is nothing we can do to add to what Jesus did on the cross. The Mormon godhead is neither omniscient, omnipresent, nor omnipotent. Unlike the biblical teaching of the Trinity, the three members of the Mormon godhead are separate gods. Not only that, Father God and Jesus are seen as men who earned their way to godhood and are limited in their ability to know all things, be in all places at once, and to hear and answer prayers.
Worthy Mormon priesthood holders can eventually work their way to godhood in the next life, rule their own worlds, and populate them with spirit children born of at least one wife. Therefore, there are possibly millions of Mormon gods. This is not the one true God of Bible-believing Christians. Mormons have four standard works of scripture. Three of the four are distinctly Mormon and were birthed by the founding Mormon prophet, Joseph Smith.
The Bible is only one of the four, and they teach that it is unreliably translated. However, the Bible offers stern warnings about judging by appearance John 7: Have you maintained any of your friendships with Mormons you knew before leaving Mormonism? Mostly on social media, I have casual contact with former Mormon friends, but not typically any close personal relationships. Some contact me to say they have seen this or that interview, and they are not happy with me.
Temple-worthy Mormons are not supposed to associate with anyone whose teachings run contrary to LDS Church teachings.
Doing so can place the temple-recommend and eternal life with Heavenly Father in jeopardy. Quite frankly, the loss of 30 years of friends was really tough on me at first. But God is good, and He eventually, over several years, replaced those friendships a hundredfold with amazing Bible-studying, God-worshipping, praying friends in the body of Christ all around the world through our ministry. Although secret, LDS temple clothing, ordinances, and covenants can be found on the Internet.
What goes on in temples? It was basically a non-issue. Any lack of financial autonomy on the part of single women stems from their own life and career decisions. Shame on those men. Any imbalance in numbers of singles comes from the fact that while there are roughly equal numbers of men and women born in the church, the sad truth is that men go inactive at a faster rate than do women, probably indicating that women have more spiritual strength than men do, on average.
There are individuals who are sexist in the church. There are a lot of imperfect people in the church. Women ought to learn to be more independent, to think for themselves, to not need validation from men to make their own life decisions, to not judge self-worth based on callings or prestige. Men ought to love the women in their lives and support them in following their dreams and passions, to not judge or lash out at women for making decisions they would not have made, and generally stay active more and be more involved in the church.
If you stick around, do the work, and read through comments you will find answers to many of your questions as to what many of us believe. You will also find many of the points you take issue with explained. And yet, here we are.
Read my response to Cameron two comments up. I agree with that. You seem to think women who work towards gender equality are too concerned with power and prestige.
Is that really what you believe or is it a way to try to talk women out of thinking for themselves? I believe the work of fathers and mothers is equally important. Frankly, I think there is something to what both of you are saying. The priesthood hierarchy theoretically respects women, and feminists who portray it as a massive conspiracy to subordinate women are bit off.
On the other hand, too many men especially older men do view themselves as superior. You see this in the gay community, among blacks, and among feminists. Solidarity should not be blind. The hierarchy does subordinate women. My Mom is trying to teach my sisters to push back more when appropriate, and I think it makes wards and ward leaderships stronger when women are confident enough to speak for their own interests.
These are facts, indeed. But I find humor in recognizing most of them. I do not see inequality in the church. I see order, respect and perfect function as God intends when those who participate have a testimony of the gospel and its organization as a whole.
I respect all of my priesthood leaders for the positions which they hold and love the roles that the brethren accept as I continue to see how they are inspired callings.
I am not in anyway intending to question the testimony of any soul but I do know that my own testimony is what gives me peace, even joy in the organization that might be perceive as inequality. And there are many. Wonderful, you have managed to do the mental, emotional, and spiritual gymnastics that are required to avoid the minefield of pain in which our circumstances see list above put us.
But some women again there are many, many of us have different experiences, where they must do some pain management or go crazy with depression. Why not have some compassion for the rest of the women not as fortunate to be able to handle this on testimony and prayer alone, yet who love the Lord and want to be in his household, and want to respect their priesthood leaders too?
Sydney, I see order, but not as God intended. Women re supposed to have equal power and authority- priestess to priest- but we do not. I tell my children that someday the church will listen to God on that. The church is a place of order and peace but it is a negative peace, as described by Martin Luther King Jr, where the people can imagine a better and more just world but do not want to spend effort to achieve it.
Forgive me if I duplicate something previously said,. I was taught in my childhood and early years as a youth through the Scouting program how to protect myself from molestaters and bullies. My female counterparts were given no such training even though they are more likely to be the victims of pedophiles, bullies and abusers. I was given extensive training in life skills and was introduced to several career options through Scouting that is considered hand-in-glove with the priesthood.
My female counterparts were given passages of scripture to memorize and were given nowhere near as extensive training in career options. I have the privilege of seeing my gender reflected in God. I can speak about, learn about, pray to, and aspire to be like a God who is my own gender without being perceived as apostate.
I always see my gender represented in the imagery and artwork that fills churches, temples, and scriptures. The Lord speaks through his mouthpiece, the Prophet, and through his appointed channel, the Prieshood. We would be foolish to spurn the guidance that comes through this particular channel. When many were offended and stopped following Jesus because Jesus called himself the bread of life, Jesus asked his disciples if they would leave him too.
It is a humbling experience to be in the Church. The Lord requires a humble, teachable people. My take on the matter: Then we can determine if men and women alike in His church are doing His will. The Lord exemplifies the mentality He inspires in others: His power comes from His goodness, His humility, and His service to others. Men and women alike have ample opportunities to emulate Him; such opportunities are far from exclusive to supposed positions of privilege in His church.
I believe roles of stewardship that Christ has allotted to women are those of service to others. I believe the roles of stewardship that Christ has allotted to men are those of service to others. If men or women anywhere have construed the different roles of men and women as an indication of superiority one over another, then they do not understand the mind of God.
Men and women are to be valued equally, endowed with specialties and responsibilities of sometimes different but complementary purpose. If women in the church fulfill their roles with faith and humility, they will be blessed and be a blessing to others. If men in the Church fulfill their roles with humility and faith, they will be blessed and be a blessing to others.
The same promise is given to men and women alike who live faithfully and magnify their respective stations. If men or women view activity in the church of Christ in terms of power, privilege, prestige, or visibility, or if they insist in pitting the genders against each other, then I believe they are not interested in what the Lord has to offer.
I believe it is as simple as that. The most common sins that members of my gender are accused of whether by action or by association due to immodesty are not also synonymous with apostasy and corruption of religion.
Whore of all the earth. The most iconic biblical persons of my gender have not historically had suspicion thrown on them regarding their sexual promiscuity. Mary Madgelene, Eve, and virgin Mary.
Mary Magdelene, Eve, and virgin Mary. Also, I will never experience being honored in fulfilling my divine role during a sacrament meeting and simultaneously told its inappropriate to publicly function as a mother during that sacrament meeting breast feeding. This discussion is fascinating to me. I have had little exposure to this issue. My wife has a graduate degree, a career and loves being a mom. It is interesting to me that her mother is a university professor who also is very strong and leads a fulfilling life and also has no feminist activist feelings.
I have no idea why not. My own mother is a stay at home uneducated mom and is more of a feminist than either my wife or MIL. Having said that, I wonder if one reason many mormon males have a hard time understanding this is that so many of us have no interest in the privileges. Since so many men would rather not have the privileges, it makes sense that many would not recognize the inherent problems associated with it that you point out here.
I would just as soon the church gave the priesthood to women and have these issues work themselves out by having women in leadership positions that could influence change. This article helped a bit to see maybe why from a systemic standpoint it is desirable to have that bag of privileges, even if an individual woman might not want to exercise any of them ever.
Men and women are different, yes — welcome to life. Welcome to the Plan of Salvation. The differences between men and women strengthen, not weaken, the Church. There will always be things that men can do better than women, and that women can do better than men. The Church is true. I know it with my whole heart. I know President Monson has been called as a prophet to act as Christ would if he was on the earth today, and I trust that God knows what He is doing far better than we do.
That the man least qualified to be a bishop for example is still more qualified than the most qualified woman? That is just obviously false.
And taking an average difference assuming you could even pin down that there was an average difference and codifying it in policy that categorically denies one sex access to some position? I know of several wives who followed their husband on service or specialty missions, in which their husband specifically called to serve in some type of capacity that was related to his profession.
The wife was a tangential member to the calling, which was really reserved for the husband. Could we also add:. And his relationship status is not part of the consideration law of chastity consideration aside. This is saddening to me, but not for the same reasons as most of those who have posted. Why in the world do you want to be the same as men? In my opinion this is a testament to your lack of understanding of the gospel.
I see those differences as strengths. Those differences in roles do not mean that women are lesser in any way. There is something wonderfully connecting and precious about physically placing your hands on someone. We want to serve. I still hold to my opinion as stated above. Good luck to you both. The privilege to approach God in special prayer without veiling your face.
The essays contained in this issue run as wide a spectrum in feelings about the temple as the art that we found to accompany them. Readers are sure to find at least one essay that does not sound anything like their experience with the temple. It is strange and wonderful and somehow deeply satisfying that a ritual that is so standardized can be interpreted in such magnificently varied ways. I hope that you read this issue with deliberation.
I hope that as you read you imagine looking into the eyes of the women who wrote about their experiences. If you have ever read the proclaim to the family it is clear the the LDS church and our Heavenly do in fact believe men and women have different roles to play on earth but most definitely do not put more value on either role. The worlds view does. As a woman you can do powerful things and make powerful influences without holding a certain title. God has given woman the most important role and that is to create life and care for his children.
You do not always gain more respect because of your title, it comes from your character. So much if your list is not a LDS problem. It is overall society problem and targeting the LDS church does nothing but degrade it. For example, I got called into the yw presidency a month before I had my second baby, then a month after I had my third baby I was called to be the president.
I did in fact have final say on what our yw organization did and how we spent our money. The Bishop asked me what I thought was best for the yw and wanted nothing more than the yw to feel loved and empowered from God. Just last week a member of our Bishop was released because his wife had a baby and was needed at home.
But it does depend on the family circumstances. I have never felt like my husbands spirituality or personal revelation is more important than mine and neither does he. He has to hear ken to his father as well. I have always felt encouraged to gain education and develop my personal interests and talent to enhance my life.
The whole list looks at life negatively instead of looking at the blessings and opportunities we do have as women. It makes me sad that there are so many woman that can only see and feel the negative and it makes me even more sad when those that feel it share it and convince others of the negativity especially in a church that fosters love and does have the deepest respect for women.!
He is a good person. But he did not promise or covenant with God to be that way. Because I have not been abused by a trusted person, does not mean that someone else who has been abused by a trusted person must be lying, vindictive or a bad person bent against all things good. Look for the good that can come from people actually learning from people who see patterns that are invisible to those unaffected by them. April, it is such a blessing that you have never felt the inequality that the author of this post and many women in the Church have felt.
I have never experienced ecclesiastical inequality; therefore, ecclesiastical inequality does not exist. In the temple you will never be required to veil your face, promise to follow your spouse and give yourself submissively to someone else. You will not have to wait for a male to bring you though the veil and your salvation is not contingent on someone else. If I divorce or if my spouse dies I can remarry in the temple. I do not have to worry about my spouse being sealed to both me and another man in the event of my death.
I am not told that I will have brother-husbands in heaven. I do not even close to agree with everything in this […].
The tradition of having men speak last in sacrament meetings. See here for a long […]. At the Pulpit Available for Free Online. Here are links to all of our winners. Exponent II Call for Submissions: Mormon Women and Food. Exponent Holiday Gift Guide. Find Gospel Principles lesson plans at the Exponent website! The Sabbath is a day to remember what God has done for us.
Three Sisters, by Dieter F. As a Mormon Male: My odds of receiving a leadership calling compared to females of my same age, experience and spirituality are skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the calling, the larger the odds are skewed. My odds of being asked to speak at church functions compared to females of my same age, experience and spirituality are skewed in my favor.
The larger the forum, the more my odds are skewed. My church leaders are people of my own sex. The more prestigious and powerful the calling, the more this is true. The higher-up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be. I can go home from most leadership meetings feeling somewhat tied in, rather than isolated, out-of-place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance or feared.
I can be pretty sure that a disagreement with a woman is more likely to jeopardize her chances for advancement in leadership positions and her reputation as a good Mormon than it will jeopardize mine. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my gender on trial. I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my gender. If I have low credibility as a leader I can be sure that my gender is not the problem.
I can watch general conference and see people of my gender widely represented in visage and voice. I can see many diverse examples of different career choices, personalities and representations of my own gender in leadership positions.
I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my gender present, more than a single woman in a group of men would be heard. I can participate in meetings and share my opinions without colleagues suspecting that I am only here to represent my gender.
I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of the opposite gender and not feel any penalty for such oblivion more than women can ignore male patterns of behavior and communication. I can critique the church and talk about how I fear its policies without being seen as much of a cultural outsider as women who have the same thoughts. My culture gives me little fear about ignoring the opinions, perspectives and powers of people of the opposite gender.
I do not have to educate my sons to be aware of systemic sexism for their own daily physical protection and positive child development. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to pursue interests, goals and ambitions beyond parenthood more often than my sisters.
I can be pretty sure of finding people in my church community who would be willing to talk with me and advise me about my next steps professionally. I can think of many options, social, political, imaginative or professional, without asking whether a person of my gender would be accepted or allowed to do what I want to do.
I can drive poorly, be late to a meeting, cry and mismanage my financial affairs without it reflecting on my gender. I can be sure that my children will be taught materials that testify about the works, words, existence and deification of people of my own gender. I can find entire church manuals, lessons, talks, religious texts and historical scholarship which give attention only to people of my gender. I can expect figurative language and imagery in most of our religious texts and arts to testify to the experiences of my gender.
If I am emotional or upset chances are that it will be attributed to the problem I am facing rather than my gender. I can be pretty certain that my opinions will be taken seriously and not assumed that I am over exaggerating. I can be pretty sure that no one will ever go over my head to speak to my wife about an issue or ask permission of my wife for something pertaining to my life. If my day, week or year is going badly, I do not need to ask of each negative episode or situation whether it had gender overtones.
I can arrange my activities so that I will never have to experience feelings of dismissal or condescension owing to my gender. I will never have to confess sexual sins to someone of the opposite sex. I will never have to sit in a disciplinary council and discuss sexual matters with an all-female court.
I am far less likely to face sexual harassment and even sexual abuse in my church community than my female counterparts. I am far more likely to be asked about masturbation from a religious leader. Chances are I was not taught about sex and chastity from someone of the opposite gender.
I do not have to worry about the message my wardrobe sends about my sexual availability or virtue. I will never have someone of the opposite sex ask me about my underwear habits on a regular basis for temple recommend interviews.
Chances are that if I work and provide for my family I will never be called selfish or a bad father. Chances are if I do the same exact parental tasks as a woman I will receive praise for them and told that I am a good father more than she will receive praise for everyday parental tasks and told that she is a good mother.
The grooming regimen expected of me is relatively cheap and consumes little time. Chances are I never had youth activities devoted to grooming habits, style or trying on tuxedos for my future wedding. Chances are no one comments about my clothing or body in leadership conversations and I am less likely to be scrutinized and turned away from a dance or program because of my clothing. If I am not conventionally attractive, the disadvantages are relatively small and easy to ignore compared to my female counterparts.
In general, I am under much less pressure to be thin and attractive than my female counterparts. If I am fat, I probably suffer fewer social and economic consequences for being fat than fat women do. I probably have less social pressure to alter my body in extreme ways weight loss, cosmetic surgery, hair color, etc. Whether or not I am attractive is not as closely aligned with whether or not I am intelligent, competent and worthwhile as it is for women.
I can wear nice clothing similar to what I wear in my everyday professional life to church. I can wear pants without any social repercussions. I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a bitch. I can be opinionated with no fear of being accused of trying to be like a female. I can desire to hold the priesthood, serve in leadership positions and expect respect and praise without being called power hungry. On average, I am not interrupted by women as often as women are interrupted by men.
I can be confident that the ordinary language in all of my scriptural texts, church materials, manuals, talks and prayers will always include my sex, i. I will never get fired from a church affiliated organization if I choose to have children.
Chances are that my mother, sisters and wife do more of the cooking and household labor and in particular the most repetitive and unrewarding tasks, including tasks for my own family like remembering birthdays, buying presents, sending cards, etc.
Chances are my mother, sisters and wife do most of the childrearing and in particular the most dirty, repetitive and unrewarding parts of childrearing. I am certain that I will be considered for positions, callings and jobs both within the church hierarchy and in the larger church-affiliated employment and that I will never be turned down based on my gender.
I can assume that I will usually be addressed by the proper deferential title of my calling. I can be certain that when I want approval for callings, ideas and decisions in my calling that I will be communicating with someone in my own gender.
I can be certain that most talks about my gender do not refer to my reproductive capacity. It is assumed that I will have interests and career goals outside of my family.
I do not face any community recriminations or public sanctions for these. It is highly likely that most of my spiritual leaders and mentors are of my same gender. I will have the opportunity for more prominent, prestigious and public roles in the church than my female counterparts. I can be pretty sure that women will never teach me about sex, how to be a good man, what my divine role is, how to fulfill it and how I should feel about it.
As a child I received more funding for youth programs in affiliation with the scouting program and was allowed to do more elaborate, varied and skills based activities than my female counterparts. I am aware of the existence and role of the Heavenly Parent of my same gender, their position in the godhead and have some sense of my future role in the eternities.
I can be certain that people of my gender provided input to official church declarations and proclamations. I can be certain that I will never be asked to obey or hearken unto my wife in religious ceremonies. All things being equal, it is assumed that my spiritual revelation and stewardship trumps that of my wife and female counterparts.
I am allowed to pray in general conference, bless my children and handle church finances. I have the opportunity to become a deacon, teacher, priest, elder, bishop, stake president, area authority, apostle, member of the seventy and prophet that my female counterparts do not. I can hold the priesthood and pass that along to my sons. I can give blessings and heal others. People grant the words I use authority and authenticity.
I rarely seek approval or validation about my life choices from members of the opposite gender in my church community. I can be pretty sure that I can walk into any room or meeting in my church community and I will have more financial autonomy, decision making power and religious authority than anyone of the opposite gender.
I preside over my family. I have the privilege of being unaware of my Mormon male privilege. I can be certain that there are people of my same gender conducting, presiding, speaking and sitting on the stand at all of my meetings.
December 14, at December 14, at 1: January 16, at 4: May 12, at 9: June 19, at September 13, at December 14, at 3: December 15, at 6: December 14, at 4: December 15, at 2: December 19, at 7:
Imsges: mormon dating blog
I go on known trails in the parks or BLM land, not canyoneering slot canyons in the middle of nowhere. A Picture of this bone is shown by Evans.
December 15, at 4: He teaches line upon line.
It was basically a non-issue. October 28, at 2: Here the extinct horse mormon dating blog as Online dating surveys conversidens was found associated with pot shards and other artifacts of man. If you have ever read the proclaim to the family mormon dating blog is clear the the LDS church and our Heavenly do in fact datiing men and women have different roles to play blo earth but most definitely do not put more value on either role. For more pics from my trip you can go to my Instagram thehappymormon. Mormons have four standard works of scripture. It is not the fault of the holder of these privileges that he has them.
- Most popular dating sites uk 2014
- Hookup online dating
- Greatest dating quotes
- Dating site south jersey
- Vampire dating games online
- Millenium boy em dating
- Catholic dating free uk
- Creative dating site profiles
- Teenage dating dress up games
- Dating site france free
- Best free dating sites 2014 uk
- Line between dating and relationship
- Dating profile layout
- Lindsay and kalon bachelor pad still dating
- Toronto online dating reviews
- Ways to hook up online
- Free dating sites for chatting