Fine-tuned Universe - Wikipedia

Fine-tuned Universe

carbon dating christian argument

I don't deny that there is some degree of plausibility to radiometric dating, although I have to wonder if many field geologists secretly have their doubts about it. There are at least a couple of mechanisms to account for this. Radiation would also cause the image to penetrate the cloth, unlike the superficial shroud image that is observed.

About E.M.Smith

Edward Cadbury, owner of family's chocolate factory at Bournville, sponsored Alphonse Mingana in three journeys to the Middle East, and subsequently engaged Mingana to catalogue much of the collection. Reliability of Radiometric Dating. Now, some rocks in the crust are believed not to hold their argon, so this argon will enter the spaces between the rocks. Since the time of this test in , a newer calibration data-set, INTCAL04, has yielded slightly narrower results for the same radiocarbon age i. It's as if there are a large number of dials that have to be tuned to within extremely narrow limits for life to be possible in our Universe. It is interesting that hundreds of species are found all mixed up together ranging from temperate birch and spruce to subtropical Eucalyptus and bald cypress. Maybe it got included from surrounding rock as the lava flowed upward.

This gives about 0. This is about one ten millionth of the mass of the rock, a very tiny fraction. If the rock weighed one gram, the Ar in the rock would weight one ten millionth of a gram. And yet, with a relatively large amount of argon in the air, argon filtering up from rocks below, excess argon in lava, the fact that argon and potassium are water soluble, and the fact that argon is mobile in rock and is a gas, we are still expecting this wisp of argon gas to tell us how old the rock is?

The percentage of 40 Ar is even less for younger rocks. For example, it would be about one part in million for rocks in the vicinity of million years old. However, to get just one part in 10 million of argon in a rock in a thousand years, we would only need to get one part in 10 billion entering the rock each year. This would be less than one part in a trillion entering the rock each day, on the average. This would suffice to give a rock an average computed potassium-argon age of over a billion years.

Some geochronologists believe that a possible cause of excess argon is that argon diffuses into certain minerals progressively with time and pressure. Significant quantities of argon may be introduced into a mineral even at pressures as low as one bar.

We can also consider the average abundance of argon in the crust. This implies a radiometric age of over 4 billion years. So a rock can get a very old radiometric age just by having average amounts of potassium and argon. It seems reasonable to me that the large radiometric ages are simply a consequence of mixing, and not related to ages at all, at least not necessarily the ages of the rocks themselves.

It seems to me to be a certainty that water and gas will enter most, if not all, volcanic type rocks through tiny openings and invalidate almost all K-Ar ages.

Rocks are not sealed off from the environment. This contamination would seem to be more and more of a problem the older the rock became. Let me illustrate the circulation patterns of argon in the earth's crust. So argon is being produced throughout the earth's crust, and in the magma, all the time. In fact, it probably rises to the top of the magma, artificially increasing its concentration there.

Now, some rocks in the crust are believed not to hold their argon, so this argon will enter the spaces between the rocks. Leaching also occurs, releasing argon from rocks. Heating of rocks can also release argon. Argon is released from lava as it cools, and probably filters up into the crust from the magma below, along with helium and other radioactive decay products. All of this argon is being produced and entering the air and water in between the rocks, and gradually filtering up to the atmosphere.

So this argon that is being produced will leave some rocks and enter others. Different Dating Methods Agree. It is often said that a great many dating methods, used on a single specimen, will agree with each other, thus establishing the accuracy of the date given.

In reality, the overwhelming majority of measurements on the fossil bearing geologic column are all done using one method, the K-Ar method Recall that both potassium and argon are water soluble, and argon a gas is mobile in rock. Thus the agreement found between many dates does not necessarily reflect an agreement between different methods, but rather the agreement of the K-Ar method with itself Especially noting that Dalrymple suggested that only K-Ar dating methods were at all trust worthy.

I have seen no good double-blinded research studies that say otherwise. One would think that if this were a good science, then such studies would be done and published, but they are strangely lacking. Also, specific differences are known and have been known to exist between different dating methods.

For example, Isotopic studies of the Cardenas Basalt and associated Proterozoic diabase sills and dikes have produced a geologic mystery. Using the conventional assumptions of radioisotope dating, the Rb-Sr and K-Ar systems should give concordant "ages". However, it has been known for over 20 years that the two systems give discordant "ages", the K-Ar "age" being significantly younger than the Rb-Sr "age".

The "argon reset model" was the first explanation proposed for the discordance. A metamorphic event is supposed to have expelled significant argon from these rocks. The reset model is unable to reconcile the new data, leading to a metamorphic event which is excessively young and inconsistent with the conventional stratigraphic interpretation.

The "argon leakage model" also attempts to explain why these rocks have about half the argon which seems to be required by the Rb-Sr system. The leakage model supposes an incredible improbability. Both the old and new data imply that the rocks leaked argon in nearly exact proportion to the abundance of potassium producing a "leakage isochron", an explanation not supported by a quantity of an appropriate mineral or mesostasis phase. Strong negative correlation between K-Ar model age and K 2 O in the upper portion of the Cardenas Basalt is not easily explained in a consistent manner.

Furthermore, reset and leakage models have difficulty explaining the abundance of initial 36 Ar in the rocks, especially the abundance of 36 Ar in those rocks which supposedly leaked the most 40 Ar.

Three alternatives are suggested to the two argon loss models. The "argon inheritance model" and "argon mixing model" simply propose that argon is positively correlated with potassium from its magma source or produced by a mixing process, and that the linear relationship on a plot of 40 Ar versus 40 K is an artifact of the magma, not produced by radioisotope decay within these rocks.

The inheritance of argon seems to be a better model than is the mixing model. All three explanations offered as alternatives to the argon loss models invalidate using the K-Ar system as conventional geochronology would assume. The word "isochron" basically means "same age". Isochron dating is based on the ability to draw a straight line between data points that are thought to have formed at the same time. The slope of this line is used to calculate an age of the sample in isochron radiometric dating.

The isochron method of dating is perhaps the most logically sound of all the dating methods - at first approximation. This method seems to have internal measures to weed out those specimens that are not adequate for radiometric evaluation. Also, the various isochron dating systems seem to eliminate the problem of not knowing how much daughter element was present when the rock formed. Isochron dating is unique in that it goes beyond measurements of parent and daughter isotopes to calculate the age of the sample based on a simple ratio of parent to daughter isotopes and a decay rate constant - plus one other key measurement.

What is needed is a measurement of a second isotope of the same element as the daughter isotope. Also, several different measurements are needed from various locations and materials within the specimen.

This is different from the normal single point test used with the other "generic" methods. To make the straight line needed for isochron dating each group of measurements parent - P, daughter - D, daughter isotope - Di is plotted as a data point on a graph. The X-axis on the graph is the ratio of P to Di. For example, consider the following isochron graph: Obviously, if a line were drawn between these data points on the graph, there would be a very nice straight line with a positive slope.

Such a straight line would seem to indicate a strong correlation between the amount of P in each sample and the extent to which the sample is enriched in D relative to Di.

Obviously one would expect an increase in the ratio of D as compared with Di over time because P is constantly decaying into D, but not into Di. So, Di stays the same while D increases over time. But, what if the original rock was homogenous when it was made? What if all the minerals were evenly distributed throughout, atom for atom? What would an isochron of this rock look like?

It would look like a single dot on the graph. Because, any testing of any portion of the object would give the same results. The funny thing is, as rocks cool, different minerals within the rock attract certain atoms more than others. Because of this, certain mineral crystals within a rock will incorporate different elements into their structure based on their chemical differences.

However, since isotopes of the same element have the same chemical properties, there will be no preference in the inclusion of any one isotope over any other in any particular crystalline mineral as it forms. So, when put on an isochron graph, each mineral will have the same Y-value. Since a perfectly horizontal line is likely obtained from a rock as soon as it solidifies, such a horizontal line is consistent with a "zero age. Time might still be able to be determined based on changes in the slope of this horizontal line.

As time passes, P decays into D in each sample. That means that P decreases while D increases. This results in a movement of the data points. Each data point moves to the left decrease in P and upwards increase in D. Since radioactive decay proceeds in a proportional manner, the data points with the most P will move the most in a given amount of time. Thus, the data points maintain their linear arrangement over time as the slope between them increases.

The degree of slope can then be used to calculate the time since the line was horizontal or "newly formed". The slope created by these points is the age and the intercept is the initial daughter ratio. The scheme is mathematically sound. The nice thing about isochrons is that they would seem to be able to detect any sort of contamination of the specimen over time. If any data point became contaminated by outside material, it would no longer find itself in such a nice linear pattern.

Thus, isochrons do indeed seem to contain somewhat of an internal indicator or control for contamination that indicates the general suitability or unsuitability of a specimen for dating. So, it is starting to look like isochron dating has solved some of the major problems of other dating methods. However, isochron dating is still based on certain assumptions.

All areas of a given specimen formed at the same time. The specimen was entirely homogenous when it formed not layered or incompletely mixed. Limited Contamination contamination can form straight lines that are misleading. Isochrons that are based on intra-specimen crystals can be extrapolated to date the whole specimen.

Given these assumptions and the above discussion on isochron dating, some interesting problems arise as one considers certain published isochron dates.

So, what exactly is a whole-rock isochron? Whole-rock isochrons are isochrons that are based, not on intra-rock crystals, but on variations in the non-crystalline portions of a given rock. In other words, sample variations in P are found in different parts of the same rock without being involved with crystalline matrix uptake. This is a problem because the basis of isochron dating is founded on the assumption of original homogeny.

If the rock, when it formed, was originally homogenous, then the P element would be equally distributed throughout. Over time, this homogeny would not change. Thus, any such whole-rock variations in P at some later time would mean that the original rock was never homogenous when it formed. Because of this problem, whole-rock isochrons are invalid, representing the original incomplete mixing of two or more sources.

Interestingly enough, whole rock isochrons can be used as a test to see if the sample shows evidence of mixing. If there is a variation in the P values of a whole rock isochron, then any isochron obtained via crystal based studies will be automatically invalid. The P values of various whole-rock samples must all be the same, falling on a single point on the graph.

If such whole-rock samples are identical as far as their P values, mixing would still not be ruled out completely, but at least all available tests to detect mixing would have been satisfied. And yet, such whole-rock isochrons are commonly published. For example, many isochrons used to date meteorites are most probably the result of mixing since they are based on whole-rock analysis, not on crystalline analysis. There are also methods used to detect the presence of mixing with crystalline isochron analysis.

If a certain correlation is present, the isochron may be caused by a mixing. However, even if the correlation is present, it does not mean the isochron is caused by a mixing, and even if the correlation is absent, the isochron could still be caused by a more complex mixing Woodmorappe, , pp.

Therefore such tests are of questionable value. Interestingly, mainstream scientists are also starting to question the validity of isochron dating. The determination of accurate and precise isochron ages for igneous rocks requires that the initial isotope ratios of the analyzed minerals are identical at the time of eruption or emplacement.

Studies of young volcanic rocks at the mineral scale have shown this assumption to be invalid in many instances. Variations in initial isotope ratios can result in erroneous or imprecise ages. Nevertheless, it is possible for initial isotope ratio variation to be obscured in a statistically acceptable isochron. Independent age determinations and critical appraisal of petrography are needed to evaluate isotope data. If initial isotope ratio variability can be demonstrated, however, it can be used to constrain petrogenetic pathways.

But then,] The cooling history will depend on the volume of magma involved and its starting temperature, which in turn is a function of its composition. If the initial variation is systematic e.

In short, isochron dating is not the independent dating method that it was once thought. As with the other dating methods discussed already, isochron dating is also dependent upon "independent age determinations". Isochrons have been touted by the uniformitarians as a fail-safe method for dating rocks, because the data points are supposed to be self-checking Kenneth Miller used this argument in a debate against Henry Morris years ago. Now, these geologists, publishing in the premiere geological journal in the world, are telling us that isochrons can look perfect on paper yet give meaningless ages, by orders of magnitude, if the initial conditions are not known, or if the rocks were open systems at some time in the past?!

That sounds like what young earth creationists have been complaining about all along. But then, these geologists put a happy face on the situation. The problem is that it is starting to get really difficult to find a truly independent dating method out of all the various dating methods available. Furthermore, because most upper crustal rocks cooled below annealing temperatures long after their formation, early formed lead rich in Pb is locked in annealed sites so that the leachable component is enriched in recently formed Pb The isotopic composition of the leachable lead component then depends more on the cooling history and annealing temperatures of each host mineral than on their geological age; and the axiom that Pb isotopes cannot be fractionated in the natural environment, is invalid.

Although these experiments are based on a strong Hf attack on zircons, we believe, given the widespread U anomalies of several hundred percent observed in groundwater Osmond and Cowart , that they apply to the differential mobility of radiogenic Pb isotopes on a local and global scale. Also, consider the following excerpt concerning ancient zirons from the Gabbro-Peridotite Complex of the Mar: Zircon age calculations on the base of Upb systematics have been complicated by high share of common Pb and uncertainty of its isotope composition.

Common lead was captured in the process of zircon crystallization, perhaps, by mineral and fluid inclusions. But there is a small share of inherited zircon substance with the age of 3. Thus, the discordia itself obtained by us is interpreted as a result of mixture of newly formed young zircon with some share of Archean zircon presented in each studied crystal. Also, if errors for individual zircon tests are too large, these values are simply discarded. This enhances the mobility of U and especially Pb.

So, how confident can one be in zircon dates who's published Pb levels range from very high to very low? It seems to me that quite often published U-Pb and Pb-Pb dates do in fact involve fairly significant Pb levels.

Of course, if the level of Pb is too high, the data obtained is not calibrated, but is simply discarded. Doesn't this mess up the idea that all lead in zircons must be the result of radioactive decay? It is also of interest in regard to radiometric dating that Robert Gentry claims to have found "squashed" polonium haloes as well as embryonic uranium radiohaloes in coal deposits from many geological layers claimed to be hundreds of millions of years old.

These haloes represent particles of polonium and uranium, which penetrated into the coal at some point and produced a halo by radioactive decay. The fact that they are squashed indicates that part of the decay process began before the material was compressed, so the polonium had to be present before compression.

Since coal is relatively incompressible, Gentry concludes that these particles of uranium and polonium must have entered the deposit before it turned to coal. However, there is only a very small amount of lead with the uranium; if the uranium had entered hundreds of millions of years ago, then there should be much more lead. However, it's just hard to believe, according to conventional geological time scales, that this coal was compressed any time within the past several thousand or even hundred million years.

Some have argued that "radon that results from uranium decay is an inert gas and may have escaped, resulting in little lead being deposited. This would make the observed haloes consistent with an old age for the coal.

In addition, not all of the radon would be on the surface of the particles of uranium. That which was inside or bordering on coal would likely not be able to escape. Since radon has a half-life of about 4 days, it would not have much time to escape, in any event. What happens when something is dated as being very old, but shows little or no physical signs of relative aging? This basalt group is rather large covering an area of , square kilometers and fills a volume of , cubic kilometers.

The vast extent and sheer volume of such individual flows are orders of magnitude larger than anything ever recorded in known human history. Within this group are around individual lava flows each of rather uniform thickness over many kilometers with several extending up to kilometers from their origin. Now, the problem with the idea that these flows span a period of over 11 million years of deposition is that there is significant physical evidence that the CRBG flows were deposited relatively rapidly with respect to each other and with themselves.

The average time between each flow works out to around 36, years, but where is the erosion to the individual layers of basalt that one would expect to see after 36, years of exposure? The very fact that these flows cover such great distances indicate that the individual flows traveled at a high rate of speed in order to avoid solidification before they covered such huge areas as they did.

Also, there are several examples where two or three different flows within the CRBG mix with each other. This suggests that some of the individual flows did not have enough time to solidify before the next flow s occurred.

If some 36, years of time are supposed to separate each of the individual flows where is the evidence of erosion in the form of valleys or gullies cutting into the individual lava flows to be filled in by the next lava flow? There are no beds of basalt boulders that would would expect to be formed over such spans of time between individual flows.

However, a recent real time study by Riebe et. Over the course of 36, years this works out to between 6 to 7 meters 19 to 23 feet of vertical erosion. This is significant erosion and there should be evidence of this sort of erosion if the time gap between flow was really 36, years.

So, where is this evidence? For several other such flows in the United States and elsewhere around the world the time intervals between flows are thought to be even longer - and yet still there is little evidence of the erosion that would be expected after such passages of time. For example, the Lincoln Porphyry of Colorado was originally thought to be a single unit because of the geographic proximity of the outcrops and the mineralogical and chemical similarities throughout the formation.

Later, this idea was revised after radiometric dating placed various layers of the Lincoln Porphyry almost 30 million years apart in time. But how can such layers which show little if any evidence of interim erosion have been laid down thousands much less millions of years apart in time?

Other examples, such as the Garrawilla Lavas of New South Wales, Australia, are found between the Upper Triassic and Jurassic layers and yet these lavas, over a very large area, grade imperceptibly into lavas which overlie Lower Tertiary sedimentary rock supposedly laid down over million years later. The Napperby depositional sequence represents the upper limit of the Gunnedah Basin sequence, with a regional unconformity existing between the Triassic and overlying Jurassic sediments of the Surat Basin north of the Liverpool Ranges.

The Gunnedah Basin sequence includes a number of basic intrusions of Mesozoic and Tertiary rocks. These are associated with massive extrusions of the Garrawilla Volcanic complex and the Liverpool, Warrumbungle and Nandewar Ranges. Also, throughout the CRBG and elsewhere are found "pillow lava" and palagonite formations - especially near the periphery of the lava flows.

There are a few outcrops where tens of meters of vertical outcrop and hundreds of meters of horizontal outcrop consist entirely of pillow structures. Also, palagonite, with a greenish-yellow appearance produced via the reaction of hot lava coming in contact with water, is found throughout.

These features are suggestive of lava flow formation in a very wet or even underwater environment. Certainly pillow lavas indicate underwater deposition, but note that lavas can be extruded subaqeously without the production of pillow structures. The potential to form pillow lava decreases as the volume of extruded lava increases. Thus, the effective contact area between lava and water where pillow formations can potentially form becomes proportionately smaller as the volume of lava extruded becomes larger.

Other evidences of underwater formation include the finding of fresh water fossils such as sponge spicules, diatoms, and dinoflagellates between individual lava flows. Consider some interesting conclusions about these findings by Barnett and Fisk in a paper published in the journal, Northwest Science: The Palouse Falls palynoflora reflects reasonably well the regional climatic conditions as evidence by the related floras of the Columbia Plateau.

The presence of planktonic forms, aquatic macrophytes, and marsh plants indicates that deposition of the sediments took place in a body of water, probably a pond or lake. This interpretation is supported by the presence of abundant diatoms. The general decrease in aquatic plants and increase in forest elements upward in the section suggest a shallowing or infilling of the pond or lake, perhaps due to increased volcanic activity and erosion of ash from the surrounding region.

Supporting this view is the presence of thin bands of lignite near the top of the section, with a cm coal layer just underlying the capping basalt. Now, what is interesting here is that these "forest elements" to include large lenses of fossilized wood are widely divergent in the type of preserved wood found.

It is interesting that hundreds of species are found all mixed up together ranging from temperate birch and spruce to subtropical Eucalyptus and bald cypress.

The petrified logs have been stripped of limbs and bark and are generally found in the pillow complexes of the basaltic flows, implying that water preserved the wood from being completely destroyed by the intense heat of the lava as it buried them. For Barnett and Fisk to suggest that the finding of such fossil remains suggest the presence of a small pond or lake being filled in by successive flows just doesn't seem to add up.

How are such ecologically divergent trees going to get concentrated around an infilling pond or lake? Also, how is a 10cm layer of coal going to be able to form under the "capping basalt"? To me, as a speculation, it looks like the One God of the Hebrews likely came out of their time in Egypt as a refinement of Amen.

Thus their adoption and use of Amen in their prayers. Primarily, the god of wind Amun came to be identified with the solar god Ra and the god of fertility and creation Min, so that Amun-Ra had the main characteristic of a solar god, creator god and fertility god.

He also adopted the aspect of the ram from the Nubian solar god, besides numerous other titles and aspects. A monotheism, that looks to the sun for the source of the power of all life, that is embodied and carried in the wind. In the Leiden hymns, Amun, Ptah, and Re are regarded as a trinity who are distinct gods but with unity in plurality. Amun, Re and Ptah, whom none equals. He who hides his name as Amun, he appears to the face as Re, his body is Ptah.

The hidden aspect of Amun and his likely association with the wind caused Henri Frankfort to draw parallels with a passage from the Gospel of John: The storm becomes a sweet breeze for he who invokes His name… Amon is more effective than millions for he who places Him in his heart. Thanks to Him the single man becomes stronger than a crowd.

Ptah is the creator god par excellence: He is considered the demiurge who existed before all things, and by his willingness, thought the world. It was first conceived by Thought, and realized by the Word: Ptah conceives the world by the thought of his heart and gives life through the magic of his Word. That which Ptah commanded was created, with which the constituents of nature, fauna, and flora, are contained. He also plays a role in the preservation of the world and the permanence of the royal function.

In the Twenty-Fifth Dynasty, the Nubian pharaoh Shabaka would transcribe on a stela known as the Shabaka Stone, an old theological document found in the archives of the library of the temple of the god at Memphis. This document has been known as the Memphite Theology, and shows the god Ptah, the god responsible for the creation of the universe by thought and by the Word.

The universe, spoken into being by The Word, and then the trinity giving rise to stars and the embodied Sun that brings daily life to all of us, via the unseen God, via the winds and breath of life. That, in a Nut shell, is my understanding where this bit of investigation leads.

That Islam, grown out of Christianity, which itself came from the Jewish religion of the Hebrews, has a taproot reaching back to The One God of the ancient Egyptians, and through them, to the creation of the universe in The Big Bang — through Ptah, the central nature of the Sun — Ra — as bringer of the power of life to Earth, and Amen as the unseen breath of life itself.

Ammon was made in the image of a man with the head and horns of a ram, and his pictures and statues were painted blue, the sacred color of the source of life. In the Egyptian language, the word ram means concealment, and the solar God Amen Ammon was called the concealed one — which is an appropriate title for the sun as it had disappeared in the western sky and descended into the underworld. There is a tradition of considering Moses as an Egyptian rather than a Hebrew, which Freud also did in Moses and Monotheism, Not as implausible as it might sound to those familiar only with the traditional story.

The familiar Biblical story self describes Moses as growing up as an Egyptian prince, and Moses is an Egyptian name. Sigmund Freud informs us: If he lived, his time was the thirteenth of fourteenth century B.

We have no word of him except from the Holy books and written traditions of the Jews. Although the decision lacks final historical certainty, the great majority of historians have expressed the opinion that Moses did live and that the Exodus from Egypt, led by him, did in fact take place.

It has been maintained with good reason that the later history of Israel could not be understood if this were to admitted. It must be noted that when Akhenaton was expelled or moved away from Thebes to form Akhenaton in modern-day Tell El Amarna , he and his people went wandering in the wilderness and died form the thirst and hunger.

He banished all other gods and betook himself from Thebes and build his Akhenaton city in Tell El Amarna. He elevated his God, Aten, symbolized by the Sun to a new and revolutionary religion in Egypt and all over the world, and in Asia too. The normachs provincial governors had warned him that that hostile armies were gathering on the borders and planning to invade the nation, but he did not pay attention to them. The career of King Tut was ended by his early death,at the age of seventeen years.

Then the throne was seized by a priest named Eye, whose reign brought reign brought ruin to the country; for, during his brief rule, nearly all the foreign territories annexed by the great Kings of Dynasty XVIII were lost.

Eye was toppled by Harmhab, as noted briefly above, and the decline of Egypt was brought to an end. The monotheistic Aton religion was crushed in Egypt, but it did not perish entirely; since there was a young priest Moshe Moses who had received his theological education at the Temple of Heliopolis, and who became the disciple of Akhenaton.

When Atonism was was suppressed in Egypt, Moses led a group of heretics out of the country and reestablished the religion in Palestine. His opinion was endorsed by Strabo, who wrote: Mosche, as it is written in Hebrew, whom we know today told of a young princess as Moses. Exodus Chapter ii has answered that by telling of a story of an Egyptian princess who saved the baby. As he grew up and became a high Priest, and in the final analysis led the followers of Aten into the wilderness, it is clear that he passed on his knowledge gained from being a disciple of AKhenaton and his religion.

The Jewish religion did not speak of anything beyond the the grave, for such a doctrine is reconcilable with the strictest monotheism. Part 1 and Part 2 , in order to fully understand the role played by Osiris, God and Judge of the Dead in after life. Moses, did not enjoy an unqualified success in his promulgation of the new religion since many of his followers still recognized the old gods: The seven planetary luminaries of the great candlestick; the twelve stones, or signs in the Urim of the high priests; the feasts of the two equinoxes entrances and gates of the two hemispheres ; the ceremony of the lamb the celestial ram, then in the fifteenth degree ; … all remains so may witnesses of the filiation of his ideas, and of their extraction form the common course.

As has been noted above, there are differing views as to how the religion of Akhenaton got to be powerful and spread around the world, and taken up by the Jewish people according to a myriad scholarly works, a certain consistency emerges. That of Moses being an Egyptian and having taught the principles of Aten to his follower and recognizing the existence of One God. That is the theological basis of saying that The Church Of The Sacred Carbon is not in conflict with any of those religious traditions nor those of Druids and Pagans in general.

They all come from a common root in the ancient Wisdom Texts and ancient Wisdom Practices. Each has taken their own path, their own evolution to today. Yet we are all powered by the Sun, nourished via Carbon, made of the the same stuff, and by the same means. The ancients recognized that. It is all, at the taproot, the same. More interesting bits here: At the city of Akhetaten, the ancient religion of the Aten received a make-over.

Aten temple design, ritual, and symbolism by a falcon-headed man and a sun disc referred to as Re-Herakhty derived originally from the traditional solar god Ra whose center of worship had been from very ancient times at Memphis and On Heliopolis. The Aten had in essence become a god without human or animal image. The disc of the sun was now considered to be the single physical representation of the invisible and eternal god, Ra, and a deity in its own right. The theory discussed below is summarized from here.

Radiocarbon dating of Qur'anic manuscripts is very rare, though this is beginning to change. With the advent of the Corpus Coranicum project, carbon dating has been given pride of place with a specially named module Computatio Radiocarbonica. The aim here is to supplement traditional methods for dating the earliest Qur'anic manuscripts with modern scientific methods. It should be highlighted that when conducting radiocarbon analysis, almost any date within the specified range generated by the confidence level is equally possible scientifically.

It is not the case that the range can be averaged to find the most probable date due to the fact that there usually exists a complex multi-modal probability distribution.

The carbon dating is applicable to the scriptio inferior text. Folios of a Mingana Islamic Arabic a and Arabe c. Both these manuscripts belong to the same codex. The core Mingana Collection, of manuscripts and manuscript fragments, was built up between through the common interest and energy of Dr.

Edward Cadbury and Alphonse Mingana. Edward Cadbury, owner of family's chocolate factory at Bournville, sponsored Alphonse Mingana in three journeys to the Middle East, and subsequently engaged Mingana to catalogue much of the collection. The two folios of Mingana Islamic Arabic a manuscript belong to the same codex as Arabe c. These folios have now been subjected to radiocarbon analysis at the University of Oxford Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit and have been dated to — CE with Folios a 1 recto and b 24 recto of Ms.

Whilst serving in his position as first Prussian Consul to Damascus in the middle of the 19th century, Johann Gottfried Wetzstein made numerous acquisitions of ancient Arabic manuscripts, many of which belonged to the Qur'an. In his foreword to a small catalogue he published, Wetzstein said he hoped these more than 1, kufic folios of the Qur'an he had collected would be of some interest to those involved in palaeography and Qur'anic criticism, and gave a brief entry for M a VI Hans-Caspar Graf von Bothmer from the University of Saarland, Germany, studied this manuscript in great detail from the point of view of script, ornamentation and illumination.

This monumental Qur'anic manuscript originally had dimensions around 51 cm in length by 47 cm in width Figure Its origin appears to be from Syria. However, the radiocarbon dating of this manuscript suggests a date between and CE. Certain features of the manuscript and the iconography intimate that this work was made for a member of the Umayyad family; historical circumstances suggest that caliph al-Walid himself may have commissioned it.

However, the carbon dating points to a slightly earlier date. Here it is interesting to note that both the palaeographic considerations and radiocarbon dating have arrived at nearly the same conclusion, i. However, as von Bothmer has noted, the radiocarbon dating gives a slightly earlier date. This could be due to the fact that the radiocarbon dating gives the death of animal and not when the manuscript was actually written.

The most famous of them is the Chester Beatty Moritz published details of the twenty ornamented pages. This privately-owned fragment of the Qur'an was published recently by Yasin Dutton [Figure 11 a ]. The radiocarbon dating of the fragment was carried out at the University of Oxford [Figure 11 b ]. Two calibration data-sets, viz. The results are as follows. Since the time of this test in , a newer calibration data-set, INTCAL04, has yielded slightly narrower results for the same radiocarbon age i.

Likewise, the test on E20 Qur'anic manuscript in St. Petersburg yielded a year range — CE. In these two cases, neither of them help very much in establishing a narrow and possibly accurate date for these particular manuscripts.

This fragment is remarkably similar to two other published folios and it has been concluded that they all come from the same codex. The E20 manuscript , housed in the St. Commenting on the script and decoration, he suggests a date nearer the turn of the 1st century AH late 7th, early 8th century CE. Folios of a Leiden Or. They were purchased by the University Library of Leiden in from H.

Jorissen, the former Dutch Ambassador to Beirut. This manuscript has been subject to radiocarbon analysis under the auspices of the Corpus Coranicum project and has been dated to — CE with Late in the 19th century the manuscript was in St. Petersburg, Russia, where it was studied by the Russian orientalist A. So great was the interest in this codex that in Pisarev or Pissareff was encouraged to publish a facsimile edition.

Petersberg, a number of folios were separated from this manuscript and over the years a number of folios have appeared under the hammer at auction or have been sold privately between collectors. It was found in North Africa. This is a massive Qur'anic manuscript on vellum showing a well-formed kufic script without diacritical marks and ornamentation.

The verse endings are marked by small panels of diagonals lines; the tenth verse is marked with a square medallion illuminated in blue, green, red and manganese with a stellar design. Shebunin dated this manuscript to the early second century hijra. Pisarev, [64] Jeffery dated it to the early ninth century. The recto side of folio of manuscript Leiden Or. This manuscript was privately acquired by C. Van Arendonk was a curator of the Leiden Oriental collections.

Qur'ans written on papyrus are quite rare. This is because papyrus, unlike parchment, is not as durable a material for everyday use. Due to their fragile nature combined with regular use of the Qur'an, these manuscripts may not have survived. The recent radiocarbon dating of this papyrus under the auspices of the Corpus Coranicum project gave a date range of — CE with This privately-owned fragment of the Qur'an is unpublished and remains in the private collection of Professor Dr.

Mark Mersiowsky, located in Stuttgart, Germany. This manuscript, consisting of one folio only, was subject to radiocarbon analysis under the auspices of the Corpus Coranicum project and has been dated to — CE with This Qur'an is written on 7 lines per page measuring on average A folio from Arabe m belongs to Codex R. This small Qur'an is written on 6 lines per page measuring on average just The largest section is kept under shelfmark R. Additionally there are four other folios, Ms.

Arabe m , ff. A folio from Ms. This Qur'an is written on 5 lines per page measuring on average Numerous folios have been acquired on the open market and are scattered around the world in various public and private collections. Table I below provides a summary of radiocarbon dated manuscripts of the Qur'an that have been described and fully referenced in the previous section. Some manuscripts were dated several times to understand the accuracy of the process as well as to presumably check the location-dependent changes in dating that may be observed.

List of radiocarbon dated manuscripts of Qur'an. As shown in Table I, it has been radiocarbon-dated in five different labs in five different countries. This also serves as a platform to independently verify the agreement on dating performed in various laboratories.

Agreement between independent radiocarbon tests conducted at different laboratories is a very useful method for weeding out aberrations due to mishandling of samples. One may conclude that the radiocarbon tests completed at Lyon are suspect due to their irreproducibility. The application of radiocarbon dating to early Qur'ans has also resulted in a raft of questionable, bizarre and even absurd hypotheses from non-scientists.

It is not clear whether such attempts are to anchor their own chronological reconstruction of history or to construct a totally "new science" to extricate their version of history.

We will examine some of these prominent hypotheses below. Being well served by historians, is Qur'anic studies really in need of carbon dating? After all there are some major drawbacks to this method - it is very expensive and destructive.

Other serious issues include the wide range of calendar years in which a manuscript could have been written. Scholars have successfully utilised "traditional" dating methods such as palaeography, codicology and art history that utilise script, format, ornamentation and illumination which are then compared, where possible, with their dated counterparts in architecture.

In short, why bother? Being a modern invention, some historians have become unduly skeptical in embracing radiocarbon dating. Two Qur'ans, both with endowment notices, were carbon dated by the Centre de Datation par le Radiocarbone de Lyon, France, and provided a range of dates that preceded the date given in the endowment notices by around 50 and years, respectively. It is also important to remember that the carbon dating of parchment is an imprecise science something indicated by the large range of possible dates given for the various fragments.

An imprecise science does not follow the scientific method - the method that involves testing an idea and modifying the idea to fit the evidence. Radiocarbon dating utilizes the knowledge of the unstable nature of 14 C with a precise half-life that makes it easy to measure, thus making it an absolute dating method. As a test, in , Willard Libby and his team took samples of acacia from two ancient Egyptian Old Kingdom rulers and dated them.

Therefore, it is clear that radiocarbon dating is not based on some imprecise science, cooking up evidence to fit the idea or data. On the other hand, palaeography is a relative dating method which gives an order of events without giving an exact age.

Thus, generally speaking, it cannot be used to pinpoint dates with high precision. Is palaeography a form of science? Commenting on the issues regarding the dating of inscriptions, William M. The so-called science of paleography often relies on circular reasoning because there is insufficient data to draw precise conclusion about dating. Scholars also tend to oversimplify diachronic development, assuming models of simplicity rather than complexity.

In other words, palaeography can at best be termed as an inexact science, filled with uncertainties and imprecisions. It is not judicious to upscale palaeography for its reliability whilst, on the other hand, putting down radiocarbon dating for its alleged lack thereof. So, what is the general "rule of thumb" followed in dating manuscripts via palaeography? This kind of precision dating defies the realities of scribal activity.

The productive writing life of a scribe was probably around thirty or thirty-five years. Add to that the fact that the scribal profession was an apprenticed trade, with students learning a particular style from a teacher, and we find that a given hand may be present over multiple generations of scribes. Thus the "rule of thumb" should probably be to avoid dating a hand more precisely than a range of at least seventy or eighty years.

This is comparable with the "rule of thumb" of at least a range of 70 to 80 years used in palaeography for dating a manuscript. Unlike radiocarbon dating, it is worth noting that a range of 70 to 80 years used in palaeography has no confidence level attached to it.

The choice of whether to believe in such a "confidence level" is entirely up to an individual. In any case, the Birmingham results suggest that Lyon might not have botched the job after all. Intriguingly, the first date range from Lyon — corresponds rather closely to the date range given from a laboratory in Oxford for the Birmingham manuscript — What is telling here is the fact that Reynolds, instead of using a scientific approach to look at the problem, applies his own reasoning that must necessarily accord with his preferred historical interpretation.

How does one make a rational choice as to which date, if any, out of these three is correct? The answer is that there is no way of knowing if Lyon botched the job unless these three dates are independently compared with those obtained from other labs. Reynolds makes no attempt to use the scientific method here. Nevertheless, the dating of these manuscripts has proven to be highly problematic and controversial. Suffice to say that the process of radiocarbon dating does not seem to be working accurately on these materials.

For instance, one such manuscript, now in Birmingham, England, has been given a date range that places it before Muhammad began his religious movement. It is not clear as to why the radiocarbon dating of these manuscripts is inaccurate. Furthermore, how does Shoemaker know that the dating is inaccurate? Has he got independent, consistent and reliable radiocarbon data of each of these manuscripts which can prove his case? It is worthwhile pointing out that when applied to parchments in fields other than Qur'anic studies, radiocarbon dating has yielded results that are "generally Shoemaker says the Qur'an could predate Muhammad but elsewhere his radical reinterpretation of Islam's origins necessitates he cannot accept a date for the codification i.

For him the Qur'an can predate or antedate Muhammad; that it could coincide is not a consideration. Here the problem may lie with the conditions arid or semi-arid climate under which the cattle, the hides of which were later turned into parchment, was raised.

Thus, according to his view, the arid or semi-arid climate in which the parchment for Qur'anic manuscripts were produced does not lend itself to accurate radiocarbon dating. There are numerous problems with this view. As we had noted earlier, radiocarbon 14 C is produced via the cosmogenic process and this happens at stratospheric altitudes of 9 to 15 km above the surface of the Earth. In general, the cosmic rays flux remains constant and observed fluctuations in production rate of 14 C are controlled by geomagnetic field strength and solar activity.

Thus seasonal changes and presence of moisture on the surface of the Earth have no effect on the production rate of 14 C. What about the variation of decay of radiocarbon 14 C due to the chemical environment around the atom?

Thus, the variation of just a percentage or so, is much too small to affect Earth's overall time scale and consequently the radiocarbon dating itself. If one were to instead use the data from the southern hemisphere and we are talking about Arabia here , I am told by those more expert in this procedure than me that very different datings would result. To begin with, Arabia is not in the Southern Hemisphere. It is situated in the Northern Hemisphere between the latitudes The Tropic of Cancer at As for the global atmospheric radiocarbon content, it is controlled by several factors such as climatic changes, oceanic circulation, solar output and geomagnetic variability.

It has been demonstrated that Southern Hemisphere samples have lower 14 C contents. The question now is how much older are the radiocarbon samples from the Southern Hemisphere compared to the Northern Hemisphere? Furthermore, it is not surprising that the calibration data set for the Northern Hemisphere IntCal series [] is different from that of the Sourthern Hemisphere SHCal series , [] and that these are frequently updated to fine tune the respective calibration curves.

That is, these manuscripts are from 1st century of hijra. Shoemaker's argument against radiocarbon dating shifts from raising the inter-hemispheric offset to intra-hemispheric changes in radiocarbon content. The problem, it would seem, is that radiocarbon dating in the medieval period is only accurate when it can be calibrated by tree ring data, particularly from oak trees. Such data is wanting for the medieval Mediterranean or Near East, and the data from the northern hemisphere that has been used to calibrate these tests was taken from Ireland and North America.

There are several inaccuracies in the above set of statements. The work of the Aegean Dendrochronology Project started in s and since then it has continued since to build the long tree-ring chronologies for the eastern half of the Mediterranean.

Its aim was to make scientific sense of the Aegean and Near Eastern chronology from the Neolithic Age to the present.

Imsges: carbon dating christian argument

carbon dating christian argument

No technique is perfect and radiocarbon dating is no exception. Obviously, if a line were drawn between these data points on the graph, there would be a very nice straight line with a positive slope.

carbon dating christian argument

Also if the image was produced using a bas-relief method, 3D information would be expected. Is there anything you can recommend to help me further on my paper?

carbon dating christian argument

There is nothing about the argumenf that matches what we know about Pontius Pilate. Raul Esperante teamed up with Dr. Wiens addresses specifically the claims, misrepresentations and distortions of fundamentalists who lie about dating reliability in their attempt to prove evolution wrong. In other experiments muscovite was synthesized from a colloidal gel under similar temperatures and Carbon dating christian argument pressures, the resultant muscovite retaining up to 0. This also justifies Slusher's statements about argon moving in and out of rocks with ease.